Thriving with ADHD with Lou Brown

Today is a discussion between the two Lous!!  Lou Kuchel speaks to Lou Brown about ADHD.  When Lou B was a child, she was misunderstood.  That led to shame and a poor self image.  After discovering her son was ADHD, she realised she's also neurodivergent and that led to a re-birth of sorts.  Lou realised that everything she had experienced in her earlier years, now has an explanation.  The world opened up and Lou became an ADHD coach and is now a PhD candidate!  More doors have opened and Lou is a consumer advisor at Deakin University, on the board at AADPA and her parenting approach is set for validation that will bring hope and improve outcomes for many neurodivergent families in the future. 

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Resources discussed during this episode:

Lou's website:
https://thrivingwithadhd.com.au/?fbclid=IwAR0RIZLtd-gMXuVjdUB04D41knkLrH4ULHELCGbxGz563cc7INJJ8MjuQgM

Lou's Teacher Guide - this can be printed and shared with primary schools when advocating for students with ADHD:
https://thrivingwithadhd.com.au/product/adhd-in-primary-school-product/?fbclid=IwAR0Yo8QpLxrIRRDr3RV5qWRa5ASXcQwkzerqXZUuJeAeAiRRqwBSUiyKJaQ

More parent resources:
https://thrivingwithadhd.com.au/parental-resources/?fbclid=IwAR26U9g7kG1rDlEP_wslEJiGJSJ7Qo2MZFDKC4uCswGL0X7Y-ElMKHORDYo

AADPA website and Language guide (endorsed by PAAA):
https://aadpa.com.au/talking-about-adhd/?fbclid=IwAR3itqTthAVWewhPjCqaIMAW8vYwKJl_M3JsPIwkqzvWBPxDb3bRPOV16b4

Transcript

00:00.00
louisekuchel
 welcome to the podcast Lou Brown

00:12.11
Lou Brown
Hi Lou Nice to be here.

00:16.70
louisekuchel
I'm so glad you are here from one Lou to another? Um Lou let's start our episode with the icebreaker questions and as people would know by now I have some new icebreaker questions this year to sort of. Mix it up a bit and make it a bit of fun. So let's get into it. What's your favorite animal lu and why.

00:40.38
Lou Brown
Well I know that my son would want me to say a dog and he'd be highly worried if I if he heard me say well That's his favorite animal and I love them dearly but I have a pet bird of budgy and she's my pride and joy sorry I would probably say my budge is my my favorite animal just because he's.

00:53.51
louisekuchel
Oh. Oh I did not know you had a budgy. What's the Budgie's name.

01:00.16
Lou Brown
And he his name's Billy but why I love him. He's so frail and feisty. So his comes in that he'll sit on you and like come you know and my shoulder and stuff and he's got a real personality but I love how.

01:08.23
louisekuchel
Oh.

01:19.56
Lou Brown
Frail He is Inv vulnerablenerable to be like you could crush them me in your hands you know? Yeah, they're so confident just you know to be with you that they'll also stand up and fight like nothing on Earth and fight the hell out of you if they're not happy. So I like that about them. It's like that real duckta position and mixture of you know we want to be soft.

01:21.35
louisekuchel
Oh.

01:31.90
louisekuchel
Oh yes.

01:39.70
Lou Brown
But sometimes we need to be tough as well know. Um, maybe I sorry beautiful I Just adore him um, can hear him singing ah around now he's gorgeous.

01:39.47
louisekuchel
Or maybe he's like a mini you who sounds similar to you Ah oh oh you'll have to show him to me later. Oh that's great, excellent and my second question for you is Lou if there is. Was 1 thing in the world that you could change what would it be and why.

02:03.43
Lou Brown
Um I guess I would like the world to be a more inclusive loving accepting non-judgmental place that was you know, just people that really knew what love meant and.

02:18.66
louisekuchel
Um, yeah.

02:20.58
Lou Brown
People felt good about themselves so they didn't feel threatened and feel that they had to you know decrease somebody's else's worth in order to feel good about themselves I would really love you know the world to be like that and I know that I've got rosy colored glasses but I still live my life.

02:29.54
louisekuchel
Yeah.

02:39.43
Lou Brown
Hoping that that will happen one day and I know when I do my character traits Love always comes up number one which is really gushing and stuff but I can't help but I do wish that the world was more like that and I hope one day that it will be.

02:44.56
louisekuchel
Um, ah yeah.

02:52.35
louisekuchel
Oh that's really lovely. It honestly is I do see you that way as well. That's that fits with you nicely. Oh very nice and um Lou I now was going to ask you a little bit more about you. Your life growing up I know there's a story behind you. But other people don't know that so can you tell us a bit about how you found yourself doing what you were doing today. You know how you got here? Um, and what sort of connection have you got to this square peg trying to fit into the round hole kind of.

03:31.26
Lou Brown
I Guess I was always the square peg trying to fit into the round hole I actually remember when I was younger wanting to be like everybody else where other people were trying to be an individual and I just wasn't um.

03:31.71
louisekuchel
Concept.

03:48.12
Lou Brown
I was diagnosed when I was really young with having hyperactivity. Um, my parents were given medication which is I think it was diazepam which they give so diaan no phenatolin that they give to um. You know patients who have epilepsy and stuff to try and calm me down and I was allowed to go to um to kindergarten at three and a half to give my mum a break but back then they thought you grew out of it. They thought it was a behavior disorder and all the advice given to mum was all about strict parenting and stuff. And I basically grew up feeling like there was something wrong with me that I couldn't no matter how much I tried fit the mold I couldn't be the um route you know fit in that round hole. No matter how much I tried and I guess in some ways it broke me I did. Um, think very little of myself I was always in trouble any time I wasn't in trouble if I was trying really hard to be what they wanted to be I was like this anxious thing. But as soon as I relaxed and was who I was off with the fairies and having a great time and chasing my interest and I was in trouble again. So I grew up not feeling great about myself I ended up when you look at the trajectory of people with Adhd that often happens I was one of those kids that had social problems I had a lot of obviously confident self-esteem problems I started drinking. Quite young. Um I developed an eating disorder I had all the financial problems and car accidents and all the things that um are a risk and I didn't want to be here anymore. Um, and I still to this day when I talk about it for myself tear up and. Feel for that little girl so much that it drives everything that I do now because I do not want any other child in this world to ever feel the way that I did about myself and so over the years I kind of tried to start um, loving myself and you know. Kind and do and was a really massive journey and every time I looked into whether you know I you know I still had hyperactivity and stuff and in my twenty s it still said you grew out of it in the stuff that I had um, accessed because I was in the yeah uk at the time and if I didn't Australia. Maybe I would have found out that it. Exist but I was in the Uk and it still the information said it didn't so I just you know kept going along in my life making lots of mistakes but also doing things that I loved I mean I got I had a great career as a nurse as a senior nurse and and things like that. But there was always something that.

06:38.12
Lou Brown
Couldn't I don't know I have foot in mouth I'd do something wrong where I would and I was always um I got more and more anxious and always worried about mistakes I was going to make and and it I don't know it was really really hard and then.

06:49.48
louisekuchel
E.

06:55.95
Lou Brown
My son started having um, some challenges I knew that when he was younger he was. He didn't sleep. He was um, very demanding potential and couldn't play by himself. He was gorgeous. He had a lovely heart and stuff but it was just really hard and then when he um started kindergarten.

07:03.11
louisekuchel
E.

07:15.79
Lou Brown
The question came about um you know whether there was something going on and because I had separated from my ex-husband at the time and he was moving back and forth the messages I kept getting were that it was because of you know instability in the home and stuff and I thought to myself I don't believe that for a second because. Jack is like very secure in feeling. Loved. We are really close. There is you know they say that you need to be you know parent the kids and dot-da-da but no one is doing as much as I'm doing to try and help my son. It's not working and eventually I read about ahd and went i'm.

07:47.58
louisekuchel
Um.

07:55.16
Lou Brown
But I'm so sure that's what he has so I asked the school to do an assessment and then went to the gp and the gp referred us to a pediatrician and at the same time she asked me whether you know I had Adhd and I said well I I don't but I was diagnosed with hyperactivity as a child and someone said that's kind of the same thing.

08:13.67
louisekuchel
M.

08:14.80
Lou Brown
And she said it is and it's highly likely you've got avh d two so she sent me off to the psychiatrist at the same time and Jack and I were both diagnosed and the know that my gp I've got a fantastic gp she said it to me and.

08:24.25
louisekuchel
So that was the pediatrician that said that to you and oh right, that's that's lucky 1

08:34.28
Lou Brown
Um, yeah, so Jack went to the pediatrician I went to the psychologist obviously I was at both appointments and we both diagnosed and then I literally fell apart I was so scared that um Jack could have my old life and that it was.

08:39.42
louisekuchel
Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, um.

08:53.49
Lou Brown
Inevitable kind of stuff that that went hand in hand and I felt so guilty that I'd given it to him and and all this stuff and then after I mean I was so bad that I would go to the shops and I'd just start crying and I had to come home like I just was an absolute wreck for about a month and my partner Ian was really worried because I just couldn't function.

09:04.50
louisekuchel
The.

09:10.79
louisekuchel
In.

09:12.68
Lou Brown
And I went off to see a psychologist and then I just processed it and went you know what? that's not what has to happen this is going to be different this time I'm going to learn every single thing I can about Abh today and I'm not um, you know not going to take it is um but this is not can happen I'm going to make sure that.

09:23.99
louisekuchel
Which is very ad H D of you I can relate? um.

09:32.70
Lou Brown
Has a different outcome and yeah, that's what got me started on this journey and I guess my first stop was um avhd coaching because there was no other way in I was a nurse at the time I'd been nursing for over seventeen years I had had senior positions where I had run you know. 3 departments at one stage I was working as a clinical nurse specialist of caretomal therapy and I could not get a job in nursing um in the adhd field. So I left because I just obviously became my passion and adhd coaching was the way in. So that's how i.

09:58.86
louisekuchel
Who who.

10:06.85
louisekuchel
Um, interesting. Yeah, it's There's so many parallels between that story and well I film my own story but also lots of other people that I talk to you know there's similarities and then some other people have.

10:09.93
Lou Brown
Ah, do King it passed.

10:25.43
louisekuchel
Obviously different experiences but um, it's a familiar story in a lot of ways. Yeah yeah.

10:30.46
Lou Brown
And definitely like a journey I know that um like I had all this emotional experience that was really scary and and as in well that's not the right word but I struggled with thinking that you know what was going to happen to Jack but at the same time for me. It was a relief.

10:42.76
louisekuchel
Um, who yeah who.

10:50.19
Lou Brown
Because I knew that all this things I've been told that you know was lazy and selfish and all this that it actually wasn't true because I knew always in my heart that I was always this nice person and who valued love and stuff I just kept getting it wrong sometimes despite trying and so it made me feel like.

11:01.66
louisekuchel
M.

11:07.53
Lou Brown
It's okay, it's easier to go I've got a disability I've got adh D that um, you know there's a reason for this was so much easier than thinking that there was something you know wrong with me as a a person and it is my moral. You know what's the right? What's that word, you know.

11:10.55
louisekuchel
Um, yes, yes.

11:21.23
louisekuchel
Um, um your your values or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

11:26.31
Lou Brown
Basically you know my heart and yeah, my there that was much easier. Um and then taking medication while that was that was in itself really exciting really positive and really horrifying at the same time.

11:43.54
louisekuchel
Easy.

11:45.52
Lou Brown
Because all of a sudden you could focus and concentrate things were easier but you were hit with all this self-awareness which is extremely painful because all of a sudden you can control your thoughts a bit more and and stuff and and that you know Self-awareness really. Made me feel really anxious and I withdrew from a lot of my friendships I reassessed a lot of stuff. Um I didn't go back to some of them and because I just felt that I could never be what these people wanted me to be because now I realized who I was and I needed to work out. How I live my authentic life as me but support myself support my challenges or scaffold myself. So Um I decrease those risks and things that hurt me that I you know and and I could function but also use my strength so I could do the things that made me happy and I couldn't.

12:29.36
louisekuchel
E.

12:41.67
Lou Brown
You know, keep contributing to the world in a positive way. So there's this really big Metamorphosis kind of journey that you know when I thought it was over something else would hit me I remember once when I really had thought it was you know that I'd got to the other side. Um.

12:46.81
louisekuchel
M.

13:01.20
Lou Brown
I was doing something I might say what I was doing but someone said to me please don't do that again and I didn't you know consciously think I'd done anything wrong I Still not quite sure I did but having someone said that to say that to me I went home and I cried because I knew that I could never promise that.

13:17.47
louisekuchel
Right.

13:18.84
Lou Brown
Can never promise you that my brain isn't going to hijack me at some time that I'm not going to see the big picture that I'm not going to be able to you know sometimes I can't pause when I'm really passionate and emotional and that was like having to really come to terms with.

13:28.51
louisekuchel
Yes, ah.

13:37.55
Lou Brown
This is what my disorder is that how do I put myself in a position where it's least likely I'm going to do that but still love and hold myself and treat myself compassion if I do and know that it wasn't me doing it because I was a bad person. It was doing it because sometimes I can't regulate as well.

13:52.82
louisekuchel
Yeah, wow. Well I've been thinking and writing down a few things as you've been talking there. Um, so you mentioned that in the early days you were basically it sounds to me like you were fairly traumatized or at least in a. Definite state of shock for a long time worrying. Um, then having the experience of taking the medication and how that's kind of like a bittersweet experience and then learning about this. Ability or challenge around pausing. Um I've heard you talk about that before as well and I think those key things um a lot of people listening will relate to I think um, the other thing is you're also explaining a story of when you were younger. Something was there and you could see it a lot of people don't don't even sort of can cannot reflect on anything like that for example myself I look back and it's not as obvious to me, it's become more obvious to me as I've gotten older and there's definitely a lot of women and men obviously but you know. Women like us who are starting to recognize things in the whole life experience and in their developed understanding of Adhd and what it is um, you mentioned those early days and months after Jack and yourself received the diagnosis and you've talked a lot about. How that affected you which is really important for people to hear I'm sure a lot of people will get a lot of comfort from hearing that at the same time though you were worrying as you mentioned about your own child and I can relate to that. What's going to become of him. How's he going to go in life. You know there's a lot of doom and gloom when you first get the shock of it isn't there. So can you talk a bit more about how he has you know obviously keeping in mind his the confidentiality around his identity. But.

15:47.39
Lou Brown
That.

15:59.90
louisekuchel
You know how has he how has that developed for you as a mum to somebody who you know how old was he when he was diagnosed and and what's what's that been like for you as a mom to help him. How is he these days.

16:10.41
Lou Brown
Um, Jack was seven seven and a half um where do I start I'll just gonna mention just back to medication that Jack transformed in front of my eyes when he took medication. Um, and I wanted to say that because it was like a lot of the things that I needed to do.

16:25.45
louisekuchel
Yes, you hear that in a lot. Yes.

16:35.66
Lou Brown
To support him was no longer needed and that he had actually taken on board All the I don't know if the the moral ethical kind of value things that I had taught him and stuff and was displaying them all back to me because he actually could reach them or access all that information in that moment because he could.

16:45.57
louisekuchel
Who who.

16:55.41
Lou Brown
Laws and stuff so and that very much helped protect his self-esteem because then he's not always in trouble not always hearing those things and although I tried very hard not to tell him off. They're so super sensitive that you just say you know the odd thing you know.

17:10.22
louisekuchel
M.

17:14.72
Lou Brown
Just calm down slightly please honey and and like you know So um, that was a really important factor in all of it. What I have learned from my old life was that the only way you can fit a square peg into a round hole is by breaking the peg.

17:16.31
louisekuchel
Yeah.

17:32.15
louisekuchel
Um, yeah.

17:33.98
Lou Brown
And I refused to do that to my son because that's to me what had happened to me and I still didn't fit so I was not going to tell him off for things that were outside of his control. Chose to see his heart and focus on our relationship and um getting the outcomes like it was really important to me even when Jack quiz like in my tummy I would say that all I want is my son to have a big beautiful heart.

18:03.27
louisekuchel
E.

18:05.49
Lou Brown
Was really important to me that that was the type of child that I raised and that our relationship was more important than anything else and that no matter what I wanted him to have his self- estem and and to feel good about himself and to know that he was loved regardless which is that's not how I felt you Know. So I basically focused on those sort of things and um tried to always I guess what I call setting up for success and ourselves up for success and really think about.

18:24.58
louisekuchel
Who.

18:36.88
Lou Brown
You know what's going on if something happened what was behind it. How can I actually guide or nurture or prevent or lead him in that direction without conflict without making him feel bad because I don't believe that? um well I don't think telling kids off with Adhd gets you anywhere except. You know, breaks of as your attachment relationship and and stuff and really does harm but it doesn't mean that he's got ah D that I can't have high expectations of him I expect him to have beautiful manners I Expect him to behave you know appropriately I expect him to respect his elders or expect him to you know.

19:09.14
louisekuchel
M.

19:15.58
louisekuchel
M.

19:16.00
Lou Brown
To do his homework and to do stuff but the way get that from him is completely different to the Neuro What I would call neurotypical parenting or the ways that you are taught to parent a neurotypical child if you are struggling them to get to them to do stuff that approach does not work.

19:32.20
louisekuchel
And initially you came across this sort of approach which I can relate to as well. It sounds like it was fairly instinctive. Um, can you? yeah.

19:35.62
Lou Brown
Makes everything worse.

19:47.33
Lou Brown
It was it was based on it was based on. That's what was done to me I'm not doing that to anybody and it instilled that um, fighting me to change that. So right from the start when I started croaching I disagreed with the.

19:51.54
louisekuchel
Yeah.

19:56.20
louisekuchel
Rot.

20:06.98
Lou Brown
Usual parenting information that's based on operative conditioning techniques right? from the start because I knew that you couldn't punish the child out an abhd. You can't punish the child to get them to do something. They haven't yet developed the ability to do and you can't reward a child to do something. They haven't yet the ability to do either.

20:10.46
louisekuchel
In.

20:26.00
louisekuchel
O.

20:27.00
Lou Brown
Doesn't work so you have to meet that child where they are at and scaffold and help them and because they have got an interest wide brain. You needed to connect like when he was little I used to make everything fun when we would get dressed before school. We'd come out into the lounge room with our clothes and put music on and dance together and get.

20:44.50
louisekuchel
Who.

20:46.20
Lou Brown
Because we are protecting our relationship because our attachment relationship is everything as well as getting the outcome that we needed him but him ready in a positive way and enjoying ourselves and then as he got older I talk um a lot about which to him about.

20:52.50
louisekuchel
Um, of getting dressed. Yes, Yes, yeah.

21:04.24
Lou Brown
You know our values and things and those things help to guide us so we have this brain that really likes novelty. Um, and that's like really um, has a massive impact on our ability to regulate and do things but in that we also. Have interests that we need to foster and one of my interests like I say is like um, making love the most important thing in the world or doing what I can to change the outcomes and when I'm attached to something from within my heart on a deep level. It's Amazing. What mountains I can move because that provides the interest.

21:37.13
louisekuchel
M.

21:41.65
Lou Brown
Keep going so I use that kind of attachment thing to get the best out of Jack I guess um, that.

21:50.17
louisekuchel
That's but can I just say that sounds to me like you used the strength of your own Adhd to help you to be a good parent. It said like in a nutshell that's pretty much what you're saying and um, you know I heard you just say.

21:57.50
Lou Brown
Yeah, basically.

22:06.69
louisekuchel
My interest I used my interest to help me to to make it fun for my son which was then making it interesting for him as well and making him able to do something that you needed him to do.

22:08.88
Lou Brown
Yeah.

22:15.22
Lou Brown
I Really like to um I wanted because I had a nursing background research was always really important to me So when um, we were first I or diagnosed all the information that read it wasn't enough I was really a bit annoyed with the books that I picked up and stuff.

22:21.94
louisekuchel
Who. O o.

22:33.31
Lou Brown
Because I wanted more and more and more and I literally had to go to the research and then the research is in such silos that I went outside necessarily the limited thing to find more and it was important to me that what I thought thought was right from my own experience actually did a line some way. So I just knew it wasn't my point of view.

22:50.77
louisekuchel
Oh.

22:52.73
Lou Brown
It was also that you know if you look at attachment theory and all that stuff. It's very obvious that maintaining your attachment with a child with adhd needs to be a 1 number one priority and unfortunately it doesn't always I mean it's it's.

23:01.51
louisekuchel
Who who.

23:08.97
Lou Brown
Some parenting approaches talk about you know that's what it is but it's not really because just because a child looks like they're being compliant at the moment when they're really young that doesn't mean that you're attached later and you know we need. We need to yeah because if you get a child say a child does something all the time because that's next.

23:19.77
louisekuchel
Or that they're not going to be damaged by that compliance.

23:28.86
Lou Brown
Expectation of them when you remove yourself out of the situation. They don't do it anymore. But if you build in them the desire of being portent then when you leave the situation. They continue it I've said this to lots of people before that when um, if I said a Jack home Ma can you please empty the dishwasher who's ah.

23:31.42
louisekuchel
Um, yeah.

23:39.83
louisekuchel
Um, yeah.

23:48.77
Lou Brown
Kid with EightyHD is 13 now and I'll go yeah sure mom and you're go and do it if he didn't think of the dishwasher as being something that well it was something that we fostered the awareness around it as being you know we're a team when he does that I think so loved and appreciated it's his way of also you know, giving back that he.

23:49.18
louisekuchel
Who who.

24:08.36
Lou Brown
The dishwash and go oh I can't do that So boring I don't want to do that. But now when I say can do the dishwasher. He might go boring for two sex with it clicks in his head Why it's important to him and why he wants to do it and he just goes and does it and then gets praised for it. So it's like instead of me having to I've never punished him in my life anyway. But.

24:09.77
louisekuchel
Um.

24:21.24
louisekuchel
Raw. Yeah yeah.

24:27.29
Lou Brown
You know, put all those threats over him. It's not necessary because he instinctively underneath it all knows that that has value to him and being valued to him means that gives helps gives a bit of dopamine. It's not perfect because sometimes like you know it's hard to do stuff. You don't want to do whoever you are um.

24:42.61
louisekuchel
Um, yeah.

24:45.34
Lou Brown
Did the same thing. You know when it came to Jack having people over in manners manners have always been really important to me and I used to stand at the door to his friends and go have you got nice manners. You can't come in here if you don't have nice manners and when they had nice manner. Go oh you've got the most beautiful manners you can come any time we'd go to the shops and I go Jack.

24:54.36
louisekuchel
E.

25:04.59
Lou Brown
You hear that person when they have the lovely manners those kind of people make me feel really good and you want and you see that person was really rude. It makes that person feel really horrible I don't you know how do you feel when it happens brother and instinctively he now values um manners and I can tell you now for a thirty year old boy. He's got the best manners of everybody.

25:06.71
louisekuchel
Me yeah.

25:17.69
louisekuchel
yeah yeah I bet he does? Yeah yes and yet there the stigma attached to to a diagnosis of Adhd does not immediately put a beautifully polite. Well-mannered young person.

25:23.32
Lou Brown
And I know and he's got eighty H D so it's the way that.

25:35.80
Lou Brown
Yeah, nine it doesn't and it the adht doesn't make you naughty and star it does help make you seek interest which sometimes is the only way you can get interest and um.

25:37.20
louisekuchel
In many people's minds. Sadly, yeah.

25:46.10
louisekuchel
Yes.

25:52.50
Lou Brown
Simation is by doing something naughy. You're provoking then? yeah yeah, that's what's going to happen because they've actually got no choice. They need their brain is going to say we need this dopamine. It doesn't have to be like that you can you know help mold them. It doesn't don't get me wrong. My son has Eightyd H D He has significant anxiety.

25:53.88
louisekuchel
He.

26:00.82
louisekuchel
M.

26:09.33
louisekuchel
Who.

26:11.74
Lou Brown
We had a pretty tough year last year because Jack was at a school that he didn't fit. It was too big for him. It was very overwhelmed. Um and it didn't align with our values which he found really difficult and thankfully we're changing school sixteen yeah and and stuff so don't think that Jack doesn't struggle. But.

26:15.58
louisekuchel
Who. Um, yeah, and then it happens No of course not I don't yeah yeah.

26:31.56
Lou Brown
Me is like got a good basis of being a great human being he feels unlike I did he feels loved attached secure at home. He feels confident saved um and you know whereas by their age.

26:36.63
louisekuchel
Um, yes, safe. Yes.

26:49.83
louisekuchel
Yeah, yeah, ah it never fails to um, what's what am I trying to say it never fails to surprise me I think I've got um so supposed to be using a different phrase. Um, how instinctive.

26:51.54
Lou Brown
I wasn't sure even then I wanted to be alive. So for a different experience.

27:09.70
louisekuchel
This? Um, Ah I'll edit this I'll start again. It never fails to surprise me how the instincts around behaviorism are are there for us. As parents. Even though we may not really know what it is that we're seeing or how we're understanding what we are being taught about our parenting we both realize and I know there are others as well who I mean I know I looked at some of the things Around. Um. Some of these instructions to parents around essentially a behaviorist response towards parenting and also while they're at school and it just felt wrong to me because I just thought you cannot surely expect to teach neurotypical behaviors to a child who is Neuro divergent and who. Sees and feels things differently and has their own neurology that that exists and yeah, what you've just described is very much along those lines I think where you could see it early On. So Let's move on now and talk more about. Where you went from there now I know you're no longer providing a Adhd coaching service but you did go into that field didn't you can you tell us about why you decided to go down that pathway and equally why you decided to stop and redirect yourself to something new and exciting.

28:37.90
Lou Brown
Sure Um I did mention before that um, coaching basically was the only option to work in the field. Um, so I went and I did the coaching course it was in the us. So I did it at home and it was like.

28:44.87
louisekuchel
Um.

28:55.95
Lou Brown
Um, o'clock two o'clock in the morning. It was a real struggle to get it done but it was really great. Um, it wasn't I still didn't think that I had learned enough about avhd I was a bit disappointed with that. Um, the knowledge that that imparted but. Coaching information was fantastic and I had already completed wellness coaching things thinking that maybe as a nurse I could move into um that area when I knew that it was going to be hard to go back to working in the hospital with Jack needing me at home. So had some kind of grasp on what it was and that idea um and then not to say um I guess I started offering coaching services um to adults and to parents and it became really. Obvious to me important to me along the way that if you didn't understand your adh d or you didn't understand your child's adh d. You were on the back for it straight away that adhd robs you a certain amount of self-awareness and if you hadn't been. Expanded adhd in a way that you could really internalize it where you could see you know and interpret it what was happening and what possibly could be the contributing reasons why you weren't empowered enough to be able to work out. What do I need to be out of help or support or if I'm making a decision as a parent How do I know.

30:16.92
louisekuchel
Um.

30:26.91
Lou Brown
Right? one because maybe I'm misinterpreting what's driving what I'm seeing to start with which means that I'm going to have an inappropriate response so it became really important to me to work out how to understand and explain ahd in a way that um.

30:33.67
louisekuchel
Um.

30:46.42
Lou Brown
Made it more understandable that you could get inside the diagnosis that you could think Okay, if my child is going to his their room and you've asked them to get dressed and they go in there and you walk past and they're not getting dressed. What's happened why.

31:01.71
louisekuchel
Yeah.

31:03.56
Lou Brown
I understand that well they've got poor working memory and they've got an interest drivenn brain. So by the time they've got there. They've probably forgotten what they you know they were asked to do then they've seen a toy and their brain's going to inter immediatelydiate to grow I want dopamine. That's what I'm going to go and do it. So if I tell that child off I'm telling them of.

31:09.15
louisekuchel
Yeah.

31:20.41
Lou Brown
That they weren't meaning to do that that actually has no control over So how do I Then get you know that child or my son dressed and ready in a way that had a positive result that didn't involve because if I just sent him. That's what's can happen if he hasn't got the ability to remember doesn't have.

31:23.30
louisekuchel
Um.

31:35.91
louisekuchel
Um.

31:38.78
Lou Brown
Many times I say that I'm just gonna make you feel bad and I'm Goingnna get frustrated. Um now kind of remember now I'm going around in circles with my a h duo bre and how we bought to post.

31:43.52
louisekuchel
No, no, no so you say that's okay, we'll edit um so you were saying that it was helping people to understand Adhd that motivated you to um to do the coaching.

31:57.13
Lou Brown
Yeah, yeah, and so then yeah, that's okay and so then I started running workshops for parents on understanding adh D in the parenting stuff and then um I developed I did a.

32:00.98
louisekuchel
Um, now I guess you're going to go into what you did next? sorry.

32:16.85
Lou Brown
Quite early on a parenting what I call the 5 cs parenting framework with listening with empathy and eventually um, a researcher um, lean or reached out and said. Like what you're doing There's no research on this I think it's really important that um it is researched because you know when we look at the evidence-based guidelines and things like that they all have to be research-based and so at the moment they're going to continue saying that that parenting approach that's been used all this time. Appears you know from what some of the evidence not to be really giving the results that you want is going to stay being what's recommended unless somebody um does the research and shows otherwise and well.

33:03.57
louisekuchel
So can I Just stop you there because I think it cut out. Um, someone approached you and said um and said that to you and said to you um that they that they saw some something promising in your parenting approach. Um, and that you should do some research into that is that what happened.

33:26.74
Lou Brown
Yeah, they basically said to me that they could see value in my parenting approach and what I was doing that. Um, they could see that there were challenges and that we weren't necessarilyating the outcomes that we wanted from the traditional way. We.

33:45.61
louisekuchel
Yep.

33:46.71
Lou Brown
Doing things and because I had um, ah D and was able to explain things in a way that kind of breached some of that understanding. Um, yeah, she reached out and she said I think that it would be really good if you research this so we need the evidence.

33:58.58
louisekuchel
Yep.

34:06.57
Lou Brown
Stuff so things can change and that was amazing and that put me on my new path. So that's why I left coaching I've always been very um, right from the start advocacy focused. Um I've not ever really been.

34:09.92
louisekuchel
Yeah.

34:24.17
Lou Brown
Was a career person when I was in nursing but since my diagnosis everything that's given me has been more about advocacy and wanting things to be different I want systematic change I Want a new paradigm on the way we talk about understand assess treat people with abhd and I came to realize that the only way that.

34:29.13
louisekuchel
Yes, yeah.

34:43.50
Lou Brown
Was going to be able to push for this change that I wanted was by entering academia and getting involved in um I guess things like ad per the Australian Adcation Professionals Association and stuff so I was at the coalface of where things change.

34:57.60
louisekuchel
Um.

35:02.62
Lou Brown
And that I was able to move from making it sound like this is just my opinion to be able to go. Okay, so this is what all the evidence says which happens to a lyme with my opinion. So that's why I moved into that arena.

35:18.16
louisekuchel
Kent. Yeah, right? Okay, so your parenting approach you mentioned the five c's and the listening with empathy I've done your workshops in the past and and read your material and it's all. Really helped me as well as I'm sure many of our listeners will have heard of you through that before What do you think was different about your parenting approach to what we're calling the traditional approach when you refer to the traditional approach. Do you mean the kind of carrot and stick type.

35:49.29
Lou Brown
Yeah, pretty much. Um, it was very much about well to me a lot of Farringkum approaches were about control that um you know the the aim was to get compliance in the child.

35:50.46
louisekuchel
Approach What? what do you mean by that.

36:06.75
louisekuchel
Who.

36:08.33
Lou Brown
Do what they wanted to do so they were easier for the parent to to look after um, that doesn't appear to me. Yeah, and it certainly becomes like a fight when you've I mean the.

36:11.42
louisekuchel
Um, yeah. And what's the downside of that approach.

36:28.31
Lou Brown
Easiest way to get a child with a HD to become opposition as oppositional is to argue with them. It's just um and if you're already feeling different and you're in trouble all the time was my experience so doesn't help you if you've got ah if you're born with a disorder.

36:33.72
louisekuchel
Um, yeah.

36:45.54
Lou Brown
And no one helps you to understand it and all you're being told is that you need to you're wrong, You're wrong, You've got to do this differently in data. You can't learn to take controlling to do anything differently because you're not being taught, you're just being crushed constantly. So I realist estate became really important that we had to um foster in you know, children and adults.

36:54.84
louisekuchel
E o.

37:04.64
Lou Brown
With Adh D this self-awareness around their disorder. So it just became this just what it is what it is. You know, um, is self except you know under self-awareness self. Ah you know self and can I say that again it became really important to me that we fostered.

37:09.15
louisekuchel
Yeah.

37:15.70
louisekuchel
Yeah.

37:22.87
Lou Brown
In children and adults with adh D this self-awareness so they could really understand their disorder this self-acceptance of who they are so they stopped wanting to compare themselves to others that they realize you know these are my strengths and these are my challenges. You know that's just what they are no judgment around them of being.

37:41.35
louisekuchel
Yeah.

37:41.49
Lou Brown
Positive or negative. That's what I've got to use in my life. How do I do that fostering you know self-compassion and then the knowledge and skills that they need to kind of scaffold their challenges embrace their strength so they can navigate life in a way that's positive they can protect themselves from Harm. And I guess they can contribute to society in meaningful ways. So that drove me um and the way that I looked at it and I Um, really thought about you know how do we foster this in children and the starting place is always going to be.

38:11.69
louisekuchel
Um, who.

38:17.44
Lou Brown
With connection because that attachment relationship is everything so you don't break that attachment. Yeah, it is the first c is connection which is about you know, focusing on your relationship with your child spending 1 one 1 time with them. You know, letting them know you love.

38:20.69
louisekuchel
And that's one of the C's connection.

38:37.39
Lou Brown
Helping them when they're struggling supporting their emotions and things entering their world because nothing tells a kid that um you love them more than mine listening with empathy which runs through the whole thing and to entering the world and sitting on the ground with them and playing. Their world where they're the boss for months rather than you know you being always in the lead. The seconds. They also helps with that connection and that's Composia So if we want our kids with ahd to manage their emotions to you know, kind of when.

39:00.10
louisekuchel
Yeah.

39:15.16
Lou Brown
You know it can be really emotional and can really struggle. But if we want them to behave differently. We have to role model that So if we're not managing our own emotions. How on Earth Do we expect our children to be able to do that and the messages they're getting all the time when we lose that composure crashes their self-esteem and um.

39:19.89
louisekuchel
Um.

39:35.14
Lou Brown
And their desire to even want to behave in ah in a certain way and you know nothing. Um, Also I said that twice now but you know that desire to you know, have that connection that comes and it's not so much. In some ways it is pleasing your parent but it's like maintaining that connection with your parent.. That's if that's if that connection's really strong you want to maintain that don't you. So then you want to try and hold it together and to behave in a certain way. The best that you can so maintaining Our composure is really important and sometimes.

39:54.17
louisekuchel
Um, yeah, yeah, yes.

40:06.35
louisekuchel
Um, broad.

40:11.28
Lou Brown
Means leaving there's been takess of time. So I say to Jap may I'm struggling right now because I've got ahd true I just need to go and have 5 minutes and stuff on my own to get you know because he can overwhelm me at times. Um, before he's had mes especially in the morning dun talking very nice now that you know.

40:11.52
louisekuchel
M.

40:23.19
louisekuchel
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

40:30.70
Lou Brown
Without judging each other just going This is what I need to get into the to the groove and stuff and maintaining my composure is like really important the next. Yeah, it is so.

40:30.16
louisekuchel
Yeah.

40:36.86
louisekuchel
Which is modeling Fantastic Self-regulatory behavior.

40:43.70
Lou Brown
Which is I know people will say that it's hard when you've got ad H D but it's not hard for people with ad Hs who to do things that are really important to them and that are really interested in. So if you make sure that you're really connected to that value and to that that thing that it was really important to you. You can.

40:51.82
louisekuchel
Yes, true. Yeah. What you can do? yeah.

41:01.21
Lou Brown
You know it's amazing. What we can achieve exactly so we've got to connect to our values and what's important and you know we've all heard that saying where um children with Adhd. It's believed receive 20000 more negative messages than neurotypical children by the age of 12 they pick up on everything.

41:16.62
louisekuchel
Who.

41:20.73
Lou Brown
And I don't want to add to those messages and I can add to that message by snapping by not controlling what comes out of my mouth by saying anything that you know words that were said to me things like oh you're just being so selfish you know.

41:22.17
louisekuchel
Who who who.

41:40.21
Lou Brown
Um, you don't think of anybody else How on Earth is that going to help you know someone being a better version of self. You can't make a child behave better by making them feel worse. You know it's just impossible. Um, that's yeah and the next thing is compassion.

41:41.34
louisekuchel
Um, who yeah.

41:51.81
louisekuchel
Yes, fantastic. Yes, that's so true. Yeah wrong.

42:00.20
Lou Brown
So it's accepting that your child has Adhd loving them regardless listening and you know, especially with empathy and showing compassion when they're struggle validating their feelings and experience. There's nothing more damaging than you having an experience as a child and. People riding it off as being or you're just over-exaggerating because that's not what that child is experiencing and it's like saying to them I'm only going to love you and spend time with you if you are like this so then they learn to you know hide stuff or they develop more shame around. You know these.

42:30.70
louisekuchel
Who.

42:38.31
Lou Brown
Experiences they're having and their their interpretation of what's going on and that can only do damage so be really compassionate listen with empathy and I'll explain that in a second and be there. The next thing is collaboration So when you actually have connection composure and compassion.

42:42.30
louisekuchel
He.

42:57.66
Lou Brown
You actually can open up teachable moments in which you can help children understand their adh d and slowly learn to you know, put in place some strategies to help themselves kind of things so it's using basically a coach approach in lots of ways and and I guess. It's trying to help them to understand themselves but not in a way that is negative and has to be at the age-appropriate kind of level so you know Jack is Jack's got very very self-aware when it comes to his ahd and how it affects and some stuff but that's empowering but not in a way that. It crashes him does that does that make sense so being allowed to say um you know what's an example. So I might I remember we were driving to school one day and he'd forgotten his pens and he had these special pens because he has um.

43:37.57
louisekuchel
Yeah, yes, yeah.

43:56.18
Lou Brown
Dyslexia and stuff that he likes to be able to even know it's pen he can rub out something and so he really anxious that wouldn' and so said, don't worry mate. It's not very far. We'll turn around and we'll go back. Come get them so we opened that up and stuff and then in the car I said to him so mate. What do you reckon? We could do to try and um.

43:58.83
louisekuchel
Yeah.

44:14.34
Lou Brown
Prevent having this challenge before so we don't you know you're not stressed out and stuff and it couldn't really come up with any ideas. So we said oh let's problem solve some together What if we got extra pens you always had more in you know some at homes you didn't have to get the mallovi bag or what if we did this and this and Data. So just. Trying to show him. There were lots of other ideas and then he pickeded which ones he wanted to do so by collaborating with him. He realizes that there are ways that you can scaffold things to try and prevent happening and learning from them in the past that we don't need to know judge and get upset with ourselves. Everybody makes mistakes.

44:41.67
louisekuchel
He so.

44:50.90
Lou Brown
Not a biggie. What can you know we do and so always trying to bring them involved. It doesn't matter how old they are they often understand themselves really well and what's going on for them and it doesn't work if you go Ah, what's an example on my son's. Always misplacing something so from now on I'm going to put it in here and tell him he's going to do this this. That's not going to help him remember because he's had no buying or emotional attachment to that's not necessarily on his radar whereas if you talk to them about it about you know why? it's important to them and what they think they can do and.

45:15.40
louisekuchel
Who.

45:21.49
louisekuchel
Who.

45:29.83
Lou Brown
Would you like some support in making this happening because there is a developmental delay. So if you don't um, offer a certain amount of scaffolding in a way that doesn't make them feel bad about themselves and you know that they are going to fail unless you change the goalposts so you have to figure out how do we put that scaffolding out in.

45:43.85
louisekuchel
Um, yeah, my.

45:49.33
Lou Brown
Without being overbearing and in a way that like his so many ties my Jack Juck said to me momm. You don't need to do that for me anymore I can do that myself now. But I think you need to help me with this instead. That's empowerment being that I ask for what you need and where your boundaries are and and things.

45:59.48
louisekuchel
Oh right? yeah. Yeah, so good.

46:08.19
Lou Brown
And the last one's consistency so doing it over and over again praising and rewarding behavior I avoid punishment or cost. It does not work just severs your relationship. It does not teach someone who hasn't got the ability to do something how to do it not in this artist and there.

46:22.14
louisekuchel
O o.

46:26.80
Lou Brown
So many broken adults out there with adh d you know it's easier to lift and and raise a well-adjusted you know self-accepting empowered child with EightydHD to become an adult with adh d that has those characteristic traits than to fix a broken adult.

46:35.47
louisekuchel
Um, yeah.

46:43.41
louisekuchel
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

46:46.50
Lou Brown
We need to stop that and I think it's important that I I do explain that listening with empathy goes through the whole 5 c's and listening with empathy is about listening pausing quietly listening to you know what your child is saying from their point of view.

47:03.15
louisekuchel
Who.

47:05.18
Lou Brown
Um, listening not just to what they're saying but how they're saying it and what they're not saying acknowledging and invalidating their experiences while we reserve judgment and don't give advice and you can listen with empathy without condjoining behavior and now some people listen with empathy but they don't do it for long enough. You have to stay in that.

47:21.36
louisekuchel
Who.

47:24.63
Lou Brown
Space long enough for them to get it all off out of there. You know and to feel safe. Um, yeah, yeah, at once you get there. You can you know if you.

47:27.27
louisekuchel
Yeah, and sometimes you think you think it's over and it's not over you So you've really got to give that give them every possible chance I've been there. Yeah.

47:43.41
Lou Brown
They've done something. That's you know were deemed inappropriate and staff and you've listened with empathy and say oh, that's really tough I know that but this just is not going to be appropriate when you're feeling this way to do this people aren't going to understand something could get broken. What do you think you could do differently they got Oma I'm really sorry I didn't mean to because they did.

47:56.30
louisekuchel
Um, in.

48:02.37
Lou Brown
And but you've got more chance then going like okay so what can we do? How can we support your data of changing their outcome then just snapping at them and sometimes when they're you know, young or even as teenagers Sometimes our job is to not put them in those positions to start with that. They're not quite.

48:06.86
louisekuchel
Um, yes, yes.

48:18.96
louisekuchel
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a 2 wo-way street totally well very interesting. Yes, well um I know my my experience as well is that that those strategies are so effective and I hope that.

48:21.58
Lou Brown
Ready to to handle.

48:37.87
louisekuchel
People listening you know can feel that um that that's there as a framework for them to look into further. So um, ah, you're using this framework for your parenting approach in your new life. Can you just briefly tell us about. How you're going to research this or what what does this actually mean in real practice. What's going to come out at the other end Lou from this.

49:03.98
Lou Brown
Hopefully a validated parenting education program that if I um can get the funding will be free accessible of everybody to use that. Um.

49:08.20
louisekuchel
Right.

49:20.23
Lou Brown
Change those outcomes and protect the self-esteem of you know children with ah d so it's the um Phd process is very long and complicated. The first thing I have to do which I'm still um, doing is writing a literature review because I have to.

49:21.89
louisekuchel
Yeah, right? and.

49:39.68
Lou Brown
Um, provide all the it's not as simple as just doing my parenting program I have to go back and go. Okay, so what? Um, How do you put it what you know? What are the outcomes of kids with Adhd. What could be affecting those outcomes kind of thing. What do we know about the disorder because if you don't the education as far as I'm concerned about adh year is lacking greatly and nothing will change unless the education changes but I can't um, go outside my own scope of you know coaching and get. Change and other people talking like that unless I research and can explain okay does that make sense in better detail about.

50:19.46
louisekuchel
Right? Yes, so you're basically going to see what's already out there to demonstrate that that what you're hypothesizing is something that's needed is that right.

50:31.86
Lou Brown
Yeah, it's part of it but I'm also um, the research component is that I um will be um, interviewing during semiformal interviews with a group of parents about what kind of parenting what. The format and all that kind of things is likely to get with engagement and to help the most as well as then piloting like ree doing the first research pilot of the developed program. So although I've got a program. It won't look exactly like that when I finished because although.

50:51.45
louisekuchel
Ride. Okay.

50:57.96
louisekuchel
Right.

51:10.85
Lou Brown
What I started with was very much based on my experience as well as research because that's always been like a driving thing for me, it will be adjusted and will be very much be able to back it up with research because that's really important to validate it and.

51:19.26
louisekuchel
Um.

51:26.32
louisekuchel
Yeah, okay, yeah, no, that's okay and probably we shouldn't go into too much detail because people don't need to know that it's really just understanding. What's coming and that and having some excitement around.

51:30.50
Lou Brown
Um, it's very hard to explain because it's such a complicated framework.

51:40.26
Lou Brown
Um, you know.

51:45.80
louisekuchel
Something as you say that would be validated and would be there to the ultimate aim to improve outcomes for young people, children and young people with Adhd.

51:52.74
Lou Brown
And yeah, and for now for now it's just taking on board that kind of approach like the 5 season what we've talked about and avoiding aba avoiding operative condition of like rewards and punishment I mean rewards to.

52:03.81
louisekuchel
Um, yeah.

52:11.64
Lou Brown
Certain degree can be effective but you give a child with 80 h year a reward 5 minutes later that's gone if you've actually got connection that and their love for you when you think that doesn't wear off in 5 minutes you know like there are parts to it punishment never kind of stuff. But.

52:17.15
louisekuchel
Who yeah. Um, yes, yes.

52:30.39
Lou Brown
Taking that approach now and knowing that even though there is there's no like research articles out there that someone's collating the evidence to back it up. There is the research to back this up and to say you know, um that you know.

52:43.88
louisekuchel
Um, yeah, which we need do we just need more and more of this. Yeah.

52:49.79
Lou Brown
The other way. Yeah, the other way doesn't work and it's I mean all of it is um it all pushes boundaries slightly. So even when but in my ph d when I look at in my literature the understanding Adhd that has implications. Not just the parenting program the whole ah way that my ph d has been designed is so that you know that information then can be extrapolated and go well this is how we could teach teachers to understand avh d a bit better. This is how we can understand pet help you know adults with Adhd to understand themselves better.

53:27.57
louisekuchel
Right? Yes to explain but it has benefits in in multiple domains. Yeah.

53:29.00
Lou Brown
So it's so it's That's why it's complicated and really hard to explain but it it to me that it was to me is all of it is an advocacy project and it was important to me that all of it could help in some way move systemic change.

53:40.24
louisekuchel
Right.

53:46.52
louisekuchel
Um, yeah.

53:48.29
Lou Brown
And different direct grant and all the little parts of it provoke conversations and things and it's open doors for me to be invited onto the board of the Avh D Professionals association to be invited to be um, you know consumer advisor.

53:52.84
louisekuchel
Um, yeah, yeah.

54:08.27
Lou Brown
Not consistent, a brilliant advisor but maybe it is but to Deakin University the avih research groups. So we're pushing for participatory research because you know a lot of the ahd research in the past has been not had consumer input. Um, there are some things that. I um, you know don't miss Necessari agree with because I think that the research has been conducted in ways in which don't mimic real life. So then you're not going to get the same results and that's really evident now when we look at what's going on in the autism. Um.

54:39.60
louisekuchel
Um, results.

54:47.16
Lou Brown
Area where Liz Paleg Grant Pal Peegrio Caro and paego she's just amazing. Yeah, she's like she took um, a characteristic of that they thought that all children with eighty hh do um, not have ah still so.

54:51.89
louisekuchel
Yeah, and I yeah.

55:07.10
Lou Brown
Um, she took ah um, a trait that autistic children are considered to pretty much all have and there's so much research saying that they do and she changed or altered the methodology. So it actually was more reflective of real life situations.

55:08.70
louisekuchel
Autistic children.

55:25.90
Lou Brown
And the research resulted in those children not having that characteristic So it's you know so a lot of the research in adh D is is not really reflective of real life. So if you're using a computer program to say someone got this trait.

55:30.87
louisekuchel
Um, who.

55:45.20
Lou Brown
Then Computer programs increase dopamine engagement they're exciting the um situation might be you know, simple whereas in real life. There's so many other things coming into play and the the situation could be so much more complicated. So maybe.

55:55.66
louisekuchel
Um, that.

56:03.89
Lou Brown
I you know can inhibit myself in this area but that doesn't mean I don't have inhibition problems because you put me in this areina and I can't do it does that make sense. Yeah, so in the Australian AdHD professionals

56:08.47
louisekuchel
Oh I see right? Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh very interesting. Okay and you mentioned ad par what does ad pass stand stand for and what do they do.

56:23.80
Lou Brown
Negotiat association so they they um, a professional group that consists of academics psychiatrists psychologists Adhdcoaches Ots Pediatricians Gps that um all have ah an interest in avh d and um, the board is currently well not the whole board. But the the board is responsible for the development of the adhd clinical practice guidelines.

57:00.93
louisekuchel
Ah.

57:02.21
Lou Brown
Will hopefully be released this year to make sure and push forward for evidence-based practice for educating. Obviously we understand that not everybody in the community nearly understands adhd that some you know there are still you know medical practitioners out there that you know.

57:13.38
louisekuchel
Who. Yes, there are sadly.

57:21.51
Lou Brown
Their their role is to you know, improve understanding. Um, they're involved in a lot of research and stuff but all basically of trying to improve the outcomes of people with Adhd and I was invited to be on the board as a consumer representative to ensure that. Work that they do aligns with consumer needs and what we deem as important participatory research and having inclusion is quite a new phenomenon and part of that even though I'm talking about in the research field enters into like having someone like myself.

57:41.69
louisekuchel
Right? good.

57:57.43
Lou Brown
On the board that then can say well that's actually not the experience So this is not what people in the community are talking about or have you thought about this and so you know trying to drive or what's the right word.

58:03.51
louisekuchel
E.

58:16.11
Lou Brown
Trying to um, help foster you know principles in working in this area that align with consumers you know with what consumers feel is important that validates their experiences but also takes on board their experiences because you can learn so much from them. We should be learning from adults with Adhd what.

58:23.84
louisekuchel
So there.

58:30.40
louisekuchel
Yes, here. Um, yeah, yes, yeah.

58:35.81
Lou Brown
Works and what doesn't work with raising children with abhd. Um, it's 1 thing to ask parents who say well you know I'm not having it. It's not that hard at the moment. My child's being compliant. That's not actually telling you what's going to going through that child and how that's going to affect that child later on we need to be tapping into you know adults.

58:50.40
louisekuchel
Um, right? Wow um.

58:55.55
Lou Brown
And their experiences and learning from them. We can learn so much more understanding about the disorder you know how to factors that help have positive outcomes with negative outcomes and I can tell you right now even from experience people like me had you know a terrible outcome. Because we didn't have feel loved and ah you know accepted and that attachment was broken where some people with adhds adults feel really great and happy and content himself because they felt loved and appreciated and they were okay. So Sometimes when people question whether they had Avhd often. They felt.

59:26.30
louisekuchel
Um, yeah, yeah.

59:34.60
louisekuchel
Exactly or compare themselves to someone else. We're all individuals and you know I only have to look at my own two kids.

59:34.81
Lou Brown
Loved and you know had a positive experience.

59:45.96
louisekuchel
Both have Adhd and they are the most different personalities and different behaviors exhibited by both of them. They're just completely different from each other. So just yeah, it doesn't make doesn't make any difference at all whether you've yeah yeah, yeah.

59:52.75
Lou Brown
Yeah, no, but if you feel loved and supported you come out the other side feeling good about yourself. That's the most important thing. Absolutely I mean.

01:00:05.83
louisekuchel
Yeah, yeah, and but you can still have Adhd or or or you can be any neuro divergence. Yes, exactly? yeah yeah I know everything changes over the lifespan I know it's just such an interesting experience.

01:00:12.42
Lou Brown
Probably seem to be going anywhere. In fact, with aging and since menopause has got 10 times worse.

01:00:25.82
louisekuchel
Think we're getting towards an ah end now I mean I was going to ask you I usually ask everybody about their mentors and books that they like to read about what we've been talking about because I have a website and I do put some resources on there and share those sorts of things with listeners and put them in the show notes. I Don't know though. How do you feel about that given your experience. You've just talked about. You know you sound like you're on a new adventure Anyway, So for for the reasons that there hasn't been much around. So So what do you?? What do you think.

01:00:55.51
Lou Brown
Yeah, um I don't feel like I have any books that I would recommend because um I feel like a lot of that information lacking. No one's fault I Just don't think it's been looked in that way and that's.

01:01:04.48
louisekuchel
Yeah, yeah.

01:01:15.34
Lou Brown
No 1 reason I'm doing what we're doing when it comes to mentors I don't have mentors as in I've got how can I put it I've got some people that over the course of standing up and going. No i'm. Don't agree with this I think things should be different that I've developed relationships with that have influenced me and vice versa that have become like I can't stop their mentors. We're kind of like our support system. 1 of them will say that I'm who.

01:01:44.57
louisekuchel
Um, yeah.

01:01:50.39
Lou Brown
You know that she feels like I'm her mentor but I feel like she's my mentor so it's like going on a Journeyur together. So I've got some people like that that um are gently pushing the boundaries with me and um, hoping for change in this paradigm shift that I've talked about.

01:01:52.43
louisekuchel
Right? yeah.

01:02:05.37
louisekuchel
Yep. Um, yep.

01:02:09.75
Lou Brown
Um, and you know we're coming. Yeah well um, where they can know and they will like I can I'll question you know their perception. So.

01:02:12.24
louisekuchel
You have a more of a mutual relationship by the sounds of things rather than like listing off a whole heap of academics or something. Yeah, or.

01:02:27.10
Lou Brown
Think they'll question mine and through that will grow. So hopefully together we will be able to create a new frontier and things.

01:02:27.34
louisekuchel
Yeah, yeah.

01:02:34.78
louisekuchel
Well I am very excited to hear what that's going to be and thank you so much for sharing your history but also your future with us. Because it sounds like you've been. We've all we're all on this journey. But you know you sound like you've had a real. You came to a fork in the road and you've made your choices you know over time and you're now moving in a and brand new exciting direction and so. We'll just keep our eye on you. Lou.

01:03:06.27
Lou Brown
And all I can say that your kids with Aie Hoax do beautiful and just love them. Just love them and accept them for who they are help them be their best self give them the benefit of the doubt know.

01:03:11.64
louisekuchel
Yeah.

01:03:18.11
louisekuchel
Thank you we will. We will won't we everyone we will thank you Lou um, couldn't agree with you more absolutely live and breathe Adhd as you know since I met you? So um. We're all doing a bit and appreciate what you're doing and cannot wait to hear more in the future. So shall I sign us off. Yeah, you too. Lou thanks everybody for listening.

01:03:39.39
Lou Brown
Yeah, lovely to talk to you lo.