Moving away from Behaviourism with Christina Keeble

This is a long episode but it is well worth it and packed with a huge amount of resources and helpful and practical advice and information.  There's quite a few light bulb moments where Lou connects the dots such as a realisation that you can't apply Collaborative Proactive Solutions if you don't have a trusting relationship with the child first.  Christina Keeble is a complex and authentic neurodivergent educator.  She has a deep understanding from personal experience, parenting experience, teaching and psychology.  Not only does she share her perspective, she offers so much practical and helpful advice that can be applied in our families immediately.  Lou and Christina explore self-identity, authenticity, neurodiversity affirming practices over ABA, interoception and co-regulation and more...

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Website: www.squarepegroundwhole.com.au

Resources discussed during this episode:

Christina's business website:
https://christinakeeble.com/

South Australian Dept of Education - Interoception information:
https://www.education.sa.gov.au/schools-and-educators/curriculum-and-teaching/curriculum-programs/applying-interoception-skills-classroom

Autism Goals website:
https://autismgoals.com.au/

Autism Goals Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/Familiesandautism

The 5Cs that Christina mentioned in the episode:
https://christinakeeble.com/free-downloads/

The PEKE Centre website:
https://www.pekecentre.com.au/

The Autistic Realm Australia Facebook group:
https://www.facebook.com/autisticrealm

Reframing Autism website:
https://reframingautism.org.au/

Dr Mona Delahooke website:
https://monadelahooke.com/

Dr Ross Greene website:
https://drrossgreene.com/

Dr Stuart Shanker and Self-reg website:
https://self-reg.ca/

Dr Stephen Porges and Polyvagal theory:
https://integratedlistening.com/ssp-safe-sound-protocol/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=brand%20-%20nam%20-%20search%20-%20all%20devices&utm_term=stephen%20porges%20ssp&gclid=Cj0KCQiA15yNBhDTARIsAGnwe0VhZLBoVFWn9pSf-ofpfGTnBFKOuFia2_FezvijD_ZFr939jQYTtIwaAs7XEALw_wcB

Transcript

00:00.00
louisekuchel
Okay, so it's recording now and everything looks good. So I'm going to start welcome to the podcast Christina kiball.

00:08.59
Christina Keeble
Thank you so much for having me I'm really excited to be here. Lou.

00:12.59
louisekuchel
So am I I'm really really truly am like ah we were just having a chat before weren't we and it was fart fun. We're having a bit of fun. Um, yes I can tell straight away we're going to get on really well.

00:19.57
Christina Keeble
Yeah, we could do I think we could chat all day.

00:27.74
louisekuchel
Um, and ah ah it quite funny really wasn't it. We're having internet problems and blah but blah and I'm thinking to myself. This woman's been on Maggie dents a podcast I'm sure it was really professional being with the abc and everything and then she comes in. On mine and then I've got my bed and my dog in the background. So. It's just me. Okay, it's just a little old me um, okay christina let's just get straight into this I'm gonna start by asking you the first ice break a question. So.

00:45.63
Christina Keeble
No no, oh good this is this is awesome.

01:00.89
louisekuchel
The question is when the pandemic is over this covid pandemic and we can travel again. Where do you want to go and why I mean the Pandemic's still here. But the freedoms are starting to appear now aren't they so yeah, what's what's your thoughts on travel.

01:14.42
Christina Keeble
Yeah, well actually interestingly um, when it came to answer and you very kindly gave me a list of questions ahead of time which allows me to prepare and I need that um and interestingly out of all of them I Found the ice breaker. Questions the most challenging to answer which I I Actually it was the last thing I looked at I went through all the ones that I recognize easily and I went back and I almost missed them and I thought no I need to have an answer. Nothing was coming to me and I I find I guess I wanted to say that because I find it really interesting I've heard before.

01:48.00
louisekuchel
Um, yeah.

01:51.26
Christina Keeble
Um, from other Neurod divergent individuals that you know when you're in like a new setting or you're in a training and they do those icebreaker questions. How anxiety-inducing it is for them and this actually wasn't anxiety-ducing. But I did struggled to answer them more which I don't have an exact reason why.

02:00.88
louisekuchel
Um, yeah.

02:10.12
Christina Keeble
But I have come up with answers. So I will tell you so um I had a long think about it. You can probably hear I have a weird accent I'm originally from the us and I've haven't been back to the us in a really long time I've been fortunate and had family come out to. Me, However, now that I have my children and they're getting older. My dream would be to go to Hawaii which is not where I'm from but I've always wanted to go there and I'd love to have some of my family meet me halfway and have like a big family reunion I just have really felt that lack of connection.

02:48.92
louisekuchel
He.

02:49.51
Christina Keeble
Um, from my family and it's funny because I haven't seen them for a couple years anyway. However, just knowing that you can't go and you're not either allowed to go or if you go you may not get back that added to it and just made it. It compounded.

02:59.17
louisekuchel
E.

03:08.91
Christina Keeble
Um, the reality I think so I you know I don't know that it'll be happening next year but it is definitely my next big trip on my list.

03:15.48
louisekuchel
Very interesting and so interesting to hear that about the questions too I'm going to keep that in mind because I've had other people say oh I found you know I find this quite confronting So that's good for me to know and I think that's totally fair enough. You know.

03:33.89
Christina Keeble
Oh and if these weren't confronting. It was just because because I think the reason other neurodivergent people in those settings they're put on the spot and so the beauty of this is that that I've had time to think and prepare. Um.

03:34.17
louisekuchel
It's meant to be fun, but you know I can understand you know why? it's a bit confronting.

03:43.48
louisekuchel
Yes, of course. Yeah.

03:51.38
Christina Keeble
Just for some reason it I think it was more because the questions are not directly related to my passion and my thing and I think I I had to put extra thought into it. So for me, the questions are confronting. It was just I literally Drew blank. Yeah.

03:57.91
louisekuchel
Yes, yes.

04:04.92
louisekuchel
Yes, yes, and well no, that's that's well, that's ah learning we all we all got from it. So that's good. Um, so let's go to the second 1 if you could have a superpower. What would it be and why.

04:16.98
Christina Keeble
So Okay, so I thought a lot about this.. There's a lot of really cool superpowers. Um, but essentially again, this is the 1 that I would Choose. It's coming from a point of where we're at now I Think as a global society. Um, and we've had this turmoil this trauma this unrest this uncertainty and I know at least in the Us where I'm from and definitely here in Australia There is this divisiveness at the moment which is definitely splitting.

04:48.74
louisekuchel
Um.

04:53.40
Christina Keeble
Our humanity in tattoo and it's it's extremely distressing I think for everybody and so I guess that's where my superpower if I could choose 1 I would love to be able to have the power um to help other people see or experience for a moment. What the other is experiencing.

05:11.20
louisekuchel
Wow me.

05:13.10
Christina Keeble
So when there is that that you know you versus me opinion. Um, you know, allowing them to actually be in the shoes of someone else for a moment and experience their perspective on it and and I am referring to it in the moment in terms of the pandemic but it can also go into the Realm. Of disability and you know helping other kids understand and you know helping teachers understand the parents and vice versa. Um,, there's so much divisiveness I find it personally distressing I'm extremely. Um. So I'm trying to think of a better word but I'm extremely sensitive I think to other people's reactions and and I've always wanted just to everybody to get along and I think that would you know that that understanding would be so that would be the superpower I'd choose.

05:52.73
louisekuchel
M m.

06:01.17
louisekuchel
Yes, and here. I love that I really love that it's so true. It is so distressing to think that others cannot put themselves in the shoes of of somebody who may be experiencing life differently? Um, and the final question is what is your connection to the square. Peg round hole concept. You can answer this quite briefly because I'm going to ask you a next 1 a question next but you know obviously you're here. So why don't you tell us? Thank you hu.

06:26.54
Christina Keeble
Ah, okay, yeah, and I just love the title I Got to say it is such a perfect perfect title for this. Um, essentially essentially that was what I That's what I felt my whole life.

06:44.90
louisekuchel
Who.

06:46.50
Christina Keeble
Um, probably until recently definitely growing up as and as someone who is different and undiagnosed until late in life.

06:55.27
louisekuchel
Mm we've got stuff in common. Okay, so let's move to the next question which is let's talk about you or we need to know more about you. What was like what was life like for you growing up. And how did you get to where you are today.

07:15.10
Christina Keeble
It's a big question. Um look I've actually spent a lot of time thinking about this I've realized growing up I I was really lucky in a lot of ways. So I've always known. That I was different and I definitely I definitely remember it starting in primary school. Um, and I remember you know it would have been year 1 I think maybe it was roughly your what it wasn't prep or over there. We call it kindergarten. Um. And I remember watching everybody else to see how they played and what they did and how they responded and I was almost hyper aware of being different and I was hyper aware of not wanting to say the wrong thing that would. Make me stand out as different or make you know have me be picked on and and that first memory goes back to probably year 1 um Year, but it would have been in the next couple years because I moved schools a couple times and it's it would have been before year 3 I remember watching. Kids play on the playground and the girls were chasing the boys and then tagging them and then the boys were chasing the girls and I remember just sitting there watching figuring out what was going on and going. Okay I don't know somehow I got involved in the game and i. Remember just stopping and going I don't know why they're doing like in my head I don't know why they're doing this. This isn't fun and just walk a I realize I was in my head a lot as a kid. Um I also have this memory of and it's funny because I don't have a lot of memories but I have some pivotal ones and again on the playground. There was this little like corner where there was a tree and it was quite a nice I don't know a little area and that was where everybody always went to play house and so there was a group and. Always wanted to play and I would start to get involved and there was someone was always taking charge and they'd be like you're gonna be the Mom. You're gonna be the dad. You're gonna be the kid and then I think they made me the cat or the pet or something and I was like but I don't want to be the pit and and I just remember getting really frustrated and leaving like.

09:31.18
louisekuchel
Um, fair enough.

09:34.38
Christina Keeble
I couldn't get the role that I wanted you know so that was when I just didn't engage. Um, and as I grew older and and went through school in particular I suppose ah middle so we have middle school in the us so middle school which is year 6 seven and 8 and then into high school.

09:50.52
louisekuchel
Yep.

09:53.97
Christina Keeble
I was very aware of how I dressed how I acted because over there. We don't have uniforms um and doing everything to blend in again and not stand out in high school I I was what I call a fringer so I would um.

09:57.66
louisekuchel
Um, yeah, who.

10:11.57
Christina Keeble
Didn't have a lot of close friends I'd only I'd say in my life at 1 time I had 1 maybe 2 very close friends but I had a lot of acquaintances and in high school that was protective because um I did 1 sport which kept me in touch with that group and I just kind of like fringed all the groups. Um.

10:28.24
louisekuchel
Um.

10:31.30
Christina Keeble
I was what you in I grew up in um, the 80 s and ninety s and um I was what they said back then I was tracked as a gift a gift academically gifted. Um, and so I also see in hindsight how in high school at middle school and high school in particular.

10:40.78
louisekuchel
Oh yes.

10:50.31
Christina Keeble
Where you know you're when you're going through adolescence that was a protective factor because the way it was then was all the kids were tracked together. So All the gifted kids tended or the the academically high achieving kids tended to take the same classes then they had the generalist. Classes and then there was the remedial classes and so essentially the only times there was that intermingle of students was things like Pe or lunch. Um and things like that and I can see how that was a protective factor for me, growing up and.

11:25.42
louisekuchel
E.

11:27.53
Christina Keeble
Um, it just happened that my brain worked out the system of how to pass test and there was a lot of focus then on actwell I suppose like now on academic achievement. Um and my brain just did it So I I ended up going to you know Uni Love Juni um.

11:30.12
louisekuchel
E.

11:39.47
louisekuchel
Um, yeah.

11:46.84
Christina Keeble
And when I was doing uni I started I started in my first degrees in psychology and I was in the process of enrolling to do in the states of masters in social work. So I was going to become a psychologist. And to do that I had to do some volunteering and I volunteered at this special needs preschool and that's where I first heard and learned and worked with kids on the spectrum autistic kids and there was a variety of disabilities but I literally fell in love with.

12:13.73
louisekuchel
E me.

12:21.36
Christina Keeble
That world and it actually completely changed my life. Um, when I moved to australia I actually switched a trajectory so instead of becoming a psychologist in australia I came on a student visa and I studied teaching so I studied primary teaching and I did my master's in special ed. And then I started working in Autism specific schools in new south wales and specialist settings ever since then and I don't know is like when I discovered it I just kind of felt at home and I ended up being I don't know ah pretty good at connecting with the kids.

12:56.97
louisekuchel
Um, interesting. Oh yeah.

12:58.97
Christina Keeble
And I realize now. Yeah I realize now because people you know people would say like oh how did you know that was and I was like I can't explain it. You just you know it takes time but you spend enough time and you just I can tell what they need or when they're about to melt down or things like that then um, you know.

13:09.12
louisekuchel
Yeah e.

13:18.26
Christina Keeble
Life goes on and I met my amazing husband and I had a family and I stopped teaching and I am blessed that I got to spend time being a mom and when my first started school is when um, she first got diagnosed and she got diagnosed. Um. Autistic and it just all started to click I think and then my second my son quickly afterwards followed with diagnosis and at this time I was still in this mindset of the way that I'd been trained the way that I'd been taught.

13:39.84
louisekuchel
Is.

13:56.84
Christina Keeble
And that was to see I guess from a behaviorist approach and yes and and then you know and and that's you know where I was still coming from then but it was on this journey of walking beside them and their diagnoses that led me to my diagnosis.

13:58.82
louisekuchel
Yes I want to talk more about that. Yes.

14:07.10
louisekuchel
E.

14:13.24
louisekuchel
In the hand.

14:14.47
Christina Keeble
And I'm blessed that before forty. My life came full circle so to speak and when I got diagnosed everything made sense and and that's kind of what brought me to where I am now and my kids needs um, didn't allow me to return to the classroom.

14:18.93
louisekuchel
Yeah bit. Yeah.

14:33.46
Christina Keeble
And which I tried several times and it's just you know family comes first and so that's what led me to you know I guess do what I do now which is um, you know more of a consultation type basis ah empowering and educating parents and teachers and and supporting in a way that allows my schedule to be more flexible.

14:35.16
louisekuchel
The yeah.

14:51.90
louisekuchel
Right? Yeah right? Well what an interesting journey and there'll be further questions that come from bits as you're saying bits along that I was thinking oh I've got a question about that I've got a question about that. So this is great. So actually the next 1

14:52.56
Christina Keeble
My family.

15:10.34
louisekuchel
Next question is about authenticity. So let's discuss authenticity self-identity and self-esteem most neurodivergent people I speak to have a unique way of describing how they see themselves and I've just heard you alluding to that.

15:11.80
Christina Keeble
Um.

15:24.69
Christina Keeble
Who.

15:26.97
louisekuchel
And you know where they fit in the world. How important is it for neurodivergent people to really know who they are and what they are about.

15:34.22
Christina Keeble
Yeah, ah it is such a good question it it is it is for me. It was lifesaving and life changing um prior to my personal experience with diagnosis. Not even not even when I was with.

15:43.60
louisekuchel
Um.

15:53.66
Christina Keeble
My kids along the journey when it came to my diagnosis I'd always said I'm not for or against you know diagnoses you know I understand the purpose they serve as far as funding and and getting support and all that but I was always like you know it's a very individual choice. However.

16:00.73
louisekuchel
Um.

16:12.76
Christina Keeble
I have a stance now and I am very pro diagnoses when we're talking about things such as being autistic and Edhd which I am I am both um and the reason is 1 It's got to do with the view that I have about it I don't see it. As a disorder so you will never you know I don't use that in in the terms I see it as a Neuro difference. Um, and it's a natural for me. It's a natural variation in in our species so that combined with all of the understanding that when you.

16:36.15
louisekuchel
The okay.

16:45.65
louisekuchel
Yeah.

16:52.38
Christina Keeble
Really understand the differences that are because of your brain and how it's wired. You know it. It gives you this perspective and for me it was empowering for me so much made sense I had I just. Everything made sense and I went. You know what? oh my goodness I'm not Lazy. You know what? I'm I'm someone who's been overloaded and over like trying to overachieve for too long and um, I'm pushed to burnout you know and and you know it's allowed me 1 Have a different and a more positive and a more compassionate and loving view of myself I've been able to forgive myself a lot. But also I can model that for my children now. Um, and I'm now able to put the supports into place that I need because I now understand what I need and I don't have this negative. Limbs.

17:33.33
louisekuchel
New.

17:47.43
Christina Keeble
Which I'm viewing things that my body is telling me I have to do such as sleep a lot. Um, and I know that with my journey. You know my family.

17:51.36
louisekuchel
A e.

18:01.52
Christina Keeble
My kids my husband myself we had a good 3 or 4 years where we were called a family in crisis and it was because of just this mix of you know my kids' needs and my needs and what i. Well what I anticipated would happen. You know, becoming a parent what I expected versus the reality you know number 1 society romanticizes. You know having children way too much and we're not honest enough about the the challenges to 2 young adults before they consider having a family and um.

18:36.11
louisekuchel
Um, yeah.

18:39.60
Christina Keeble
But my staff that I have I have ah allied health center and we have quite a few amazing young female therapists. Um, unfortunately we don't have any young male ones at the moment but I'm always like this in you have time. It's okay, you know and I try I try.

18:45.54
louisekuchel
Um, yeah, yeah, oh gosh. Yes, don't expect perfection. Yeah.

18:56.86
Christina Keeble
See the reality. No and it is not yeah so so there was that and then the financial side of me not being able to go back the work the way they we anticipated plus the lens with which I was viewing the challenges as you know oh behavior problems and you know there. Really giving me a hard time and why are the strategies I'm putting in place not working and I should you know I had professionals that were trying to support me telling me, you need to be more Consistent. You know how this works go back to basics duh all this stuff and that went against my.

19:28.86
louisekuchel
E.

19:34.50
Christina Keeble
Mom intuition and that was counter productive to that and and so I had my logical brain going. You know what you're doing you got to do this this and this like this is how the system works you've you've told this appearance for years, but my gut and my mom intuition was going. No.

19:50.18
louisekuchel
Um.

19:51.71
Christina Keeble
No this This is not what they need you need to do this and this and this and then my logical brain's going, but you're going to spoil them and they're gonna get control and and um ah it was this horrible horrible. Oh oh, it's it's it was.

19:57.60
louisekuchel
Yeah I know I'm just sitting here like I'm just so busting to just say I cannot tell you how much I get it. Yes, we all it happens to absolutely everyone doesn't Ah yeah.

20:09.23
Christina Keeble
So I you know it does and and I remember you know and that term you know oh you're you're not being consistent enough I got to a point where I was ready like I wouldn't but I was just ready to pump someone if they told me I wasn't being consistent enough.

20:19.49
louisekuchel
Um, yeah, yeah, and and what is the ultimate goal. Do you think for that approach is it about trying to sort of fix.

20:28.72
Christina Keeble
Like you don't understand I you know I've done all this. So ah yeah, it is. It's about it's about it was about trying to to fix.

20:37.50
louisekuchel
Fix the situation. Yeah.

20:46.00
Christina Keeble
Behavior change or replace the behavior and you know I I don't know as if that would somehow achieve so this level of peace that that I was you know seeking and I guess prior to having kids I never understood the other side of it. So.

20:57.30
louisekuchel
Um, yeah.

21:03.96
Christina Keeble
Whenever I was talking to parents before with behavior as type approaches and and the thing is there is research to back the behavior stuff it does make change. It is very quick and effective. However, what it doesn't what the research doesn't show us is you know it makes change but to what expense.

21:12.32
louisekuchel
Yes, yes.

21:22.92
louisekuchel
Yes, what is the cost of it. Yes, yes.

21:23.88
Christina Keeble
What cost to that child's mental health their mental health their well-being their self-esteem you know you know you know it's traumatizing for for them or it's reducing their self-esteem or we're telling them through our actions of I'm only going to pay attention to you.

21:31.99
louisekuchel
E e.

21:43.11
Christina Keeble
When you're doing the right thing you know what am I not saying in that moment I'm not saying that when you are not doing what I want to see I'm not going to support you I'm not going to look at you and give you attention until you're doing what I want you to do and and that the mom side of me was like no this is wrong.

21:52.33
louisekuchel
Are the.

22:00.94
Christina Keeble
Um, and as a teacher I never had that connection to anyone you know and and it's such an important you know thing and we do need to look at the overall goal is it about compliance or is it really about supporting these kids to become their best. Selves and understand and support them through these physiological and psychological development that they're experiencing you know and and with you know, compassion and love and and it's just yeah, it's so counterintuitive to I think.

22:27.44
louisekuchel
E e.

22:39.38
louisekuchel
Um, what? yeah.

22:39.87
Christina Keeble
Parents intuition you know. And yeah so'm ah, it was such a learning journey and I literally did a 1 eighty like completely changed. Um and it was hard because then you have that judgment. Um, you can get judgment from the outside world.

22:54.42
louisekuchel
In.

22:59.54
Christina Keeble
You know when I the best I always said I was the perfect parent when I didn't have kids because I knew exactly what to do but no, but when you know you're in public and you know I have my beautiful child who is obviously struggling is physically hitting me and kicking and.

23:03.60
louisekuchel
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

23:16.77
louisekuchel
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's tough. No you you know what? I'm because this is what I do I look ahead and I think.

23:18.90
Christina Keeble
Screaming and calling me names and saying these things and the looks you get? You know you have to develop a thick skin and um and I know I've gone on a bit of a tangent. But yeah.

23:34.37
louisekuchel
She's answered that question. She's answered that question. She's heading into this question. So um, what I'm going to do is put all of these next 3 questions kind of into 1 so that you can further expand on this so I was going to ask you about the fact that you've worked in specialist education and what your thoughts are on inclusive education.

23:43.55
Christina Keeble
Yep.

23:53.23
louisekuchel
Ah, was also then going to talk to you about the sorts of things that are happening in school to neurodiergent students with inappropriate adjustments exclusions via suspension and pushout and we know the latest figures have shown eighty percent or four you know? sorry yeah, four out of 5 kids. Who are four and 5 years old are being suspended from school and then I wanted to talk to you more about positive behaviour for learning because this is definitely a hot topic at the moment. So all those things kind of all go into 1 in a way. But I was going to ask you about them separately. Can you talk more about behaviorism in school the effect. It's having on the neurodivergent students. Please.

24:35.58
Christina Keeble
Definitely definitely definitely and um I guess that was where where I was going because the practice is that um I was taught so through my psychology degree through my special education degree through all of my.

24:39.14
louisekuchel
Yeah.

24:51.15
Christina Keeble
Experiences I actually was a teacher assistant before I became a teacher. Um, you know so in those different environments. Um, it was all behaviorist based based on behavior principles and principles of change and as I went through um, spending years in the classroom. You know this positive behavior.

25:02.12
louisekuchel
Yep.

25:10.30
Christina Keeble
Stuff started coming out and at first nobody really you know it didn't twig what what it was now that you know I'm on the other side of all of this. It's essentially what the way I see it is. It's a positive spin. It's a great marketing ploy on.

25:10.33
louisekuchel
And.

25:27.00
louisekuchel
Yes.

25:29.89
Christina Keeble
Behaviorist principles. So you know back when I started and and I'm I'm not proud that I I was part of the problem but you know we would you know do things that you know you would never do today such as try and stop a child stimming you know nobody ever said that was. You know I never understood the importance of that and I'm talking years and years ago. Um, yeah, or even exactly even recognizing the purpose of it. But if their parents were saying you know they didn't want their child to to look different and stand out and and you know then we were trying to support them with that and.

25:50.10
louisekuchel
Or even recognizing what the steaming is yeah.

26:00.94
louisekuchel
Um, yes.

26:07.50
Christina Keeble
Now we realize how wrong that is. It's a Self-regulatory behavior. Um, and and a form of expression. Um, but with the positive behavior stuff you know instead of giving negative consequences. It's disguised as positive. Um, and the thing is the negative is still there. It's just not.

26:12.20
louisekuchel
Um, yeah.

26:27.20
Christina Keeble
So what? the negative consequence is it's the missing out on the reward. It's exclusion. It's it's you know, seeing others progress when the child who needs the most support and developmentally doesn't have the ability to do it independently.

26:32.20
louisekuchel
Um, yeah.

26:46.94
Christina Keeble
Gets left behind. Um I have personal experience with this with you know? ah my children and I remember having this conversation with 1 of my children's former teachers and they were they had implemented this.

26:54.83
louisekuchel
Yep.

27:04.71
Christina Keeble
Positive behavior thing and so many whatevers they got some bracelet or something that was like a school thing and anyway my child was in prep and it was term 3 and had not once been recognized in front of everybody else in the class had been recognized at this point. In front of the assembly and things and my child who you know was always doing their best was saying you know it was noticing and saying it was becoming distressed to me and I you know thought oh you know because in my head if I was a teacher I'd be spacing it out and you know so you know because you only get so many opportunities.

27:29.67
louisekuchel
E.

27:43.66
Christina Keeble
And I actually you know wrote an email and said just so you know I expect my child to to get 1 before the end of the year and their response was not everybody gets it and it's not meant to be easy and I just was.

27:58.81
louisekuchel
Right? yeah.

28:01.82
Christina Keeble
Ah, 1 side calmed down. Um I I quoted some of the disability discrimination legislation and brought their their attention that there is a reason and and these kids are in prep and that you know it's more negative on their mental health and wellbeing and self.

28:14.41
louisekuchel
The.

28:20.27
Christina Keeble
Team and she will do it or I will take it further and surprise surprise next award ceremony. They were presented with 1 Um I'm not a fan of it because you know it's it's it becomes competitive. Um, especially when it's displayed on walls. It should never be an open thing and.

28:22.71
louisekuchel
M. E E e.

28:40.25
Christina Keeble
You know what once my child got the bracelet. They didn't care about it Anyway, it was like it. The reason I do when when you do it.

28:44.28
louisekuchel
Did you hear me ask that when I asked that question of Mona del. Yes, yes.

28:51.27
Christina Keeble
And it's so funny because I was like the whole focus. The only reason they cared was because everyone else had had 1 and they hadn't at that point they recognized and they thought they were doing something wrong and they were not. They were not they you know and and once they got it. They didn't.

28:56.24
louisekuchel
Um, yeah. Yeah.

29:08.76
Christina Keeble
Care and I you know and I just advocated and pushed and and made sure that happened um but I guess part of this and going back to the question that I kind of went off on a tangent about was you know once I understood myself and.

29:15.41
louisekuchel
E.

29:26.49
Christina Keeble
My family we had been in this the reason I actually went and got a diagnosis was because my mental health was really declining and it was I realized it was affecting everyone in the family and that the only way out of crisis because we had no professionals. Um, who knew and I don't mean this like with ego but you know because of my background I had skills.

29:30.56
louisekuchel
Um.

29:46.16
Christina Keeble
So I nobody had knew more than I did and I needed that next level help and the only way I could do it I realized is if I do it and I research it and find it out. So my diagnosis led to me to be able to get to a place where I could get supports and start to.

29:47.93
louisekuchel
And.

29:55.31
louisekuchel
Um.

30:04.45
Christina Keeble
Bring my family out of crisis through these learnings and a big shift away from behaviorist approaches and you know when this is happening in schools I A hundred percent recognize and acknowledge. This is not a teacher problem. This is not.

30:21.54
louisekuchel
M.

30:23.48
Christina Keeble
I I have been in this system and I would you know technically have been part of the problem and I didn't know better I didn't know different the the way that I got extra training was through the school that you know yes I could do professional development.

30:29.74
louisekuchel
Yes, yeah.

30:42.39
Christina Keeble
Sessions that I could choose but we always had a budget and it was limited and you you really only do 2 or 3 a year right and always you're trying to support the class you're in so you're thinking of professional development that aligns with that or the school provides it for you and you know what you don't get a choice what they provide now.

30:56.64
louisekuchel
E.

31:00.17
Christina Keeble
We're also constrained in schools to the administration. It starts it starts there a school culture starts at the top. However, the system is broken. It is a it is a nationwide I would even go to say is global I know the us and I know here it is a problem with.

31:12.96
louisekuchel
E e.

31:18.21
Christina Keeble
System The system was set up. You know during a time around the industrial age when you know that was getting started. Not everybody was a farmer you know and kids went to you know kids went to school to a certain point. And some of them didn't go for it once they learned to read and write some would go back to the farms Some would go into factories those who continued and did high school would potentially go to uni. They'd become the doctors. They'd become you know of the time and and the problem is the system hasn't changed much since then.

31:42.92
louisekuchel
And they were the round pegs of the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

31:53.15
Christina Keeble
You know and it's stuck and it doesn't suit society and it doesn't suit child development and the mental health of Neuro and I know it's not just Neuro divergent children but the mental health of kids is definitely um.

31:58.33
louisekuchel
O.

32:06.40
louisekuchel
Um, woo. Yeah. In.

32:12.24
Christina Keeble
The expense of of the school and it's something I'm really passionate about and it's funny I tried in the beginning when I was trying to figure out what I was gonna do I tried and I thought oh I'll try and be an advocate because I know the school system I know the inside of it and and I always have to watch what I say because there's things that. Yeah,, but there's there's things that I know I know the great side of it and the passion of the teachers and I then watch have watched and I've been 1 of those teachers who through the system you become disillusioned and broken and you're in survival mode and you're just trying to get through.

32:33.39
louisekuchel
It's okay, yeah yeah.

32:46.13
louisekuchel
Um, yeah.

32:50.27
Christina Keeble
And I've seen you know I had a Principal and I know it I know it was because of some students. But anyway we got told as a whole staff 1 day. We all got sat down because there was a family that was really struggling and I had 1 of the siblings. And I was talking you know I had a great relationship with the child I had a good relationship with with the the mom and I you know was doing everything I could to get extra supports because I needed them to be able to support the kid properly and. You know I remember it was because of something I did and said behind the scenes that we got sat down as a whole staff and we were told you are not these kids advocates you are their teachers. You do not advocate for the kids and their families and at that moment I just thought ha.

33:38.89
louisekuchel
E.

33:45.72
Christina Keeble
How then keeping in mind this person is no longer involved in this school system thankfully and which which is good tonight and I I would never disclose where who or when that was but but I know that person is no longer there and this was it.

33:51.31
louisekuchel
Good.

33:57.72
louisekuchel
No.

34:04.40
Christina Keeble
Ah, at least it was over 10 years ago um and I know that the majority are not like that. It's just that I happened to be in 1 of the problem schools you know and it was not long after that many amazing teachers I was working with left.

34:05.78
louisekuchel
Yeah.

34:13.28
louisekuchel
M.

34:19.58
louisekuchel
A.

34:21.44
Christina Keeble
And including myself I left to have my family. Um and I tried to go back. Not to that place but to some others and I tried to support some families with advocating and I have done it but it just got too personal and I couldn't keep my motions in check. So it is.

34:36.90
louisekuchel
It is so hard and you know we're hearing about some of these strategies that that are happening and I don't know if you know but in New South Wales There is a a behavior strategy they are trying to make an attempt anyway to reduce the exclusions and um, yeah, they're trying but.

34:40.21
Christina Keeble
Yeah.

34:51.10
Christina Keeble
Are wonderful. Yes.

34:56.60
louisekuchel
My concern now now that I have learnt so much more and hearing you yet again confirm it. Um, they using a behaviourist response they have behaviour specialists. They run the Pbs program or whatever it is system. It's about teaching appropriate behaviors and they think that's going to work and we know it's not so is it at least they've got the intention to reduce they can see it doesn't look good for Them. You know the advocacy work that we've done here in New South Wales has drawn attention to the fact that.

35:19.80
Christina Keeble
I would.

35:33.13
louisekuchel
There'st way overrepresentation of students with disabilities in the suspension figures. But um and that's great because they've come out and said they want to reduce that but it's the way they're going about it that I I personally have real concerns about. But yeah.

35:41.80
Christina Keeble
Um, yes.

35:47.28
Christina Keeble
Yeah, no I agree with the year

35:50.30
louisekuchel
Ah, yeah, we're halfway there. Well we're not even halfway there. We're a little bit of the way there to even draw attention to it I guess.

35:54.99
Christina Keeble
Absolutely and it and it's because of this advocacy work like you and like others are doing that you know we have to stay loud about it. We have to be the squeaky wheel and not let it fall as in out of their minds because you know this system is underfunded.

36:03.66
louisekuchel
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

36:14.92
Christina Keeble
Um, the you know in and whether you know that's I know around the world. That's a problem and so in order to keep it an issue we need to keep being vocal about it which is why I love things you know the advocacy work that you do and that's why I like coming on to podcasts and talking about these things and it's great.

36:23.92
louisekuchel
Um, me.

36:33.54
Christina Keeble
That I think the first step is changing the intention and I think when we start with okay that shift in attention that shift from okay these kids are giving me a hard time and are behaving behavior or becoming behavior problems when we shift from that to you know what? these kids are really struggling. They are struggling. How can I support them that's step 1 you know and it's great when once that's happened now with the pbis ah stuff part of the problem I know is that it produces data and what does funding and governments. Love they love data. The the truth is this.

36:53.67
louisekuchel
He.

37:04.45
louisekuchel
E e.

37:10.81
Christina Keeble
Change that needs to happen is not a quick 1 It's not that you can't collect data but it's not going to produce results as quick again. Pbis will produce results. But at what cost so because there still is that element of.

37:17.78
louisekuchel
Um. Yeah.

37:28.98
Christina Keeble
Negative consequences exclusion you know through the missing outside as it exactly and and when I read that what's the number you put here 80 percent of four and 5 year old students suspended from school of having a disability. It makes.

37:30.80
louisekuchel
Well yeah, and an assumption. There's a choice factor here which yeah.

37:42.72
louisekuchel
Ah, suspended from school. Yeah me too.

37:47.33
Christina Keeble
It makes me angry and I don't understand and and how there's such a gap between and it and I don't give like I Love early childhood I started in early childhood right? I think it's.

37:58.14
louisekuchel
Okay.

38:01.30
Christina Keeble
Most early childhood places are so nurturing and you know and they're really looking after the whole child and then there's this jump to school where it's almost like okay we've filled that bucket for you now. It's time for you to sit listen and learn you know and it's it's it's.

38:15.31
louisekuchel
Yeah.

38:18.29
Christina Keeble
Such a big jump and not only that. But it goes against child and brain development. We are literally asking kids in school to do things that and this is without kids with disabilities I'm talking kids in general that they cannot physically do.

38:29.88
louisekuchel
Yeah, do yeah yeah.

38:34.75
Christina Keeble
Their brain development is nowhere near there. Their main source of learning is play and their bodies need to move and you know brains don't really our brains are always developing but as far as when you look at brain development it stops around the age of 25 roughly um and interesting.

38:39.80
louisekuchel
Yeah.

38:49.97
louisekuchel
Yeah.

38:53.55
Christina Keeble
What I recently learned is that the final part of our brain to kind of finish is the prefrontal low cortex which guess what is what controls impulses. Okay, that's a 25 if our ability to control impulses.

39:01.97
louisekuchel
Um, yeah, as a mother of an 18 year old son. Trust me I know sorry.

39:13.38
Christina Keeble
And so I've got to show this just entering adolescence and I've been so focused on like the early years and all of a sudden puberty's here and I'm like oh no and I'm like how can if at 25 their brain is potentially not done consolidating impulse control. How can we ask a five year old

39:17.86
louisekuchel
Me too.

39:28.91
louisekuchel
Ah, it just seems Nuts doesn't it. It's just nuts and these kids are in Kindy exactly they are 5 years old it's rits just nuts look. It's a huge hurdle. It's a huge mountain of.

39:31.62
Christina Keeble
It's just.

39:38.45
Christina Keeble
Yeah, no.

39:46.17
louisekuchel
Dysfunction that we have to try and overcome and I know like you said it's it's going to take a really long time. It's and they probably not going to happen in our lifetime. But at least if we start the process and we all come together and work together I just had um yeah Samantha nuttall on on the.

39:59.44
Christina Keeble
Absolutely.

40:04.17
louisekuchel
Podcast recently and she just kept saying all the way through. We just still need to come together. We just don't and it's true. We do if we could. It would be wonderful. Yeah to have the right approach together. Yeah, so yeah.

40:08.56
Christina Keeble
But but that's exactly right? and and I really have and I know it's so hard like I do think that you know there are amazing teachers out there and I think the more that teachers and parents unite and. You know they're working from the inside and we're working from the outside you know that is the way that we can make change.

40:26.62
louisekuchel
Yeah, yes, yes, yes I agree. Yes, we've got to all work together and come from top and bottom on and and left and right and all come in together to make those policy makers Those who are making the decisions.

40:41.11
Christina Keeble
Yes.

40:44.90
louisekuchel
Understand oh okay, I'm on the wrong track. Ah you but you won't know but I've just sent this huge package to the federal education minister here. Alan tudge is his name you know with Mona dellahoe's books and all the research that. People like professorsa linda graham and all of the and you know and a huge package and and a lot of um testimonials from our listeners who are listening to us right now to try and just I know he probably won't read a lot of it but to just try to get because we need those people to have the mind shift because it's not going to happen without them.

40:59.95
Christina Keeble
Awesome.

41:18.55
louisekuchel
But least thinking there might be something we might want to change something here. We'll just have a bit of a thought look anyway. So let's let's keep moving um my next lot of questions are about you and your um, professional life.

41:20.62
Christina Keeble
And exactly.

41:34.96
louisekuchel
Um, so recently I attended your interraception and co-regulation webinar and it was really. It was awesome. Um, ansa Yeah, really good, Really good I haven't attended anything like that before and I'm um, obviously recommending it to anyone who asks me about my experience with it.

41:40.98
Christina Keeble
Thank you? but.

41:47.42
Christina Keeble
Oh thank you.

41:53.99
louisekuchel
Um, you also run webinars and professional development. Could you tell us a bit more about these. What the service that you provide and what the education that you're providing for people the audience who it's for what you do in that please.

42:07.39
Christina Keeble
Yeah, definitely. Um so yeah I I like you said I do webinars um and those so the the webinars I originally started focusing on teachers because I was trying to to make a change and I just kept.

42:22.45
louisekuchel
Ride.

42:26.28
Christina Keeble
Getting more and more parents and I was like yeah of course she can come but you realize it's geared for teachers then as my kids got diagnosed and I got diagnosed I started to bring in more personal stories and I yeah I realized also that the best way is to to educate both. You know? So so my anything I run unless it's professional development within an organization or a school is designed for ah parents carers um support workers teachers. Early childhood educators ot speeches psychologists anyone that professionally so or personally supports um a neuro divergent individual and to be honest, some of the concepts I talk about like interraception and co-regulation they apply to all kids are.

43:14.60
louisekuchel
Um, yes, yes.

43:17.74
Christina Keeble
So really? um, yeah, it's not um, it can be open as well. So so that is I guess my main audience and generally when I do things I've got fifty fifty I've got fifty percent parents and carers and fifty percent teachers are professionals which is really wonderful. Ah.

43:29.95
louisekuchel
Oh Wow Okay mm.

43:36.98
Christina Keeble
To see now. Um the other thing I do are in-person seminars. Um, so this covid has really thrown out the last years but I I had been doing along with Rebecca perkins from my special child the adhd and demand avoidance.

43:44.54
louisekuchel
Yeah I bet.

43:56.49
Christina Keeble
National tour starting next year I'm super excited together. We are doing a um ah national tour on emotional dysregulation and I was so excited and.

44:07.85
louisekuchel
I can see it and that's so good. Good.

44:13.41
Christina Keeble
Because I think it's so um and we do these in person and it's great because then we answer questions and whatnot. Um I also do parent consultations and so I offer them online I also have recently we recently opened national peak center which is here in cranburn victoria next year we're gonna be opening our city. Second center which should be warby side of melbourne um, and I yeah, yes, so the national peak center is essentially a passion project that.

44:35.59
louisekuchel
Yeah, tell us about that because I want to know more about the peak center. Yeah.

44:48.12
Christina Keeble
Rebecca Perkins and I have come together on and we both realized we had the same vision and it was to create centers where families can get support for diagnoses um therapies but then support also beyond that and not just families but throughout the lifespan.

45:04.42
louisekuchel
Um.

45:06.25
Christina Keeble
And we wanted to create centers that had pro neurodiversity approach um centers that were anti-abba and that the focus of and the training of the therapist was grounded in that of connection emotional safety and relationships. Ah, and we you know so essentially we were wanting to create what we didn't have when we were going through the experiences with our kids. Um Rebecca herself is a neuroddiergent individual with Neuro divergent kids as am I and you know we both had less than favorable. Experiences when when you come into our center. You know, um, those of us who are neurodiversion are very open about it and everyone's neurodiversity is celebrated um and it's it's part of our culture and it's ah you know it's.

45:54.54
louisekuchel
Yay I Love that? yeah.

45:58.65
Christina Keeble
Yeah, and so we also have created a unique role. Um called the support specialist so you know the the kids or the adults will have their therapist so they're Ot or they're speechy or you know whatever it is. However, we've created something called a support specialist who. Takes an overarching view of that Individual. So be it a child or an adult of their little ecosystem. So You know their parents or their main carers or their supports and they support them in those areas as well. Because you know I know when I was taking my kids you know they would be talking about my child. But then you know I was having you know situation, sibling challenges or challenges with you know my younger child who hadn't been diagnosed yet and you know myself I was just struggling and I just needed someone to. To work stuff out with and this is where this role comes into place which we found is really, we're getting really positive feedback on it and our current support specialist is a social worker and she's amazing. Um, yeah, Also the other thing I do is I I develop resources. So um, I've just recently self-published.

47:07.37
louisekuchel
Great.

47:16.10
Christina Keeble
Ah, my first children's book. It's called alpeca don't worry and yeah and it's a it's so it's a rhyming book but it's actually to be used as a resource and it's got some information in there and activities that can be used between either the therapist and the child or.

47:18.38
louisekuchel
Oh yes, I've seen that I've seen that around. Yeah.

47:35.83
Christina Keeble
The parent of the child and I also created a body signals book which again is a resource it. It teaches the kids about interraception but it also provides a resource about them and their body signals that they can then take with them to different settings and things so those are kind of that's kind of what I do. It's a variety. It keeps.

47:54.18
louisekuchel
Can I just yeah I love it. Can I just ask you a little bit more about that. Um, because I'm thinking things when you talk I'm thinking all the time. So first question that comes into my head is I often get asked ah about advocacy or an advocate. So.

47:54.49
Christina Keeble
My brain going? Oh yeah course.

48:13.29
louisekuchel
We talk the word advocacy I guess we could talk about that all day. But what what people say they don't have this is what I hear anyway is somebody to sort of help them to to go through this whole process that we've been talking about today and from our own personnel experiences. We had our own.

48:14.97
Christina Keeble
Um, yeah.

48:32.35
Christina Keeble
In area.

48:33.49
louisekuchel
Journeys and it was hard right? and I think a lot of people don't feel that they are skilled or that they have the abilities which is fine. Not everyone's good at being assertive and being the squeaky will you know so is there some sort of support in the peak centres for families in that way. And then the second thing is about I've just written down here school refusal and I know that's not the right term but school can't and kids are having so much difficulty even going to school these days. This is a growing problem and and I know covid has really impacted on that as well.

49:04.91
Christina Keeble
Um, in ah.

49:11.20
louisekuchel
Do you find? are you seeing that come through as well. So advocacy and school refusal. Yeah.

49:11.98
Christina Keeble
Ah, yes, Hundred percent hundred percent. So so with advocacy. Um yes, so that is again where that that um, support specialist role comes into play.

49:26.91
louisekuchel
Right? yes.

49:29.36
Christina Keeble
So so we've now got it structured where they so it and through experience. So this is our first year open um and I was filling the support specialist role until recently and I was doing it because I wanted to figure out what was needed really when when I handed over the role and.

49:33.76
louisekuchel
Right? yeah.

49:44.81
louisekuchel
Um.

49:47.44
Christina Keeble
What I figured out is the support specialist needs to be the first point of contact. So everyone who comes gets a free thirty minute session as part of our intake. Um, and then they get you know they meet their therapists and everything. Yes, we do support with advocacy so we've had its very individual obviously.

49:55.50
louisekuchel
A.

50:06.95
Christina Keeble
Um, we've had therapists be able to attend meetings I've attended and advocated at the time it was Covid so they were through zoom and this the support specialist herself is able to now when things get beyond.

50:22.81
louisekuchel
Yeah, yeah.

50:24.31
Christina Keeble
Our ability obviously or our our scope of knowledge we support them in connecting them with with what they need and that's where the support specialist again comes in and we're acquiring a lovely bunch of resources in our area as far as advocacy people and groups and everything. But. But maintaining that connection and contact with them and it is a huge part of our role um with with a lot of our families actually and it's so important because that's that that's what we're Wanting. We're wanting the families and when they come here, they go. Okay.

51:01.20
louisekuchel
Um, yeah.

51:01.30
Christina Keeble
I' confused about something I know they will support me and if they can't which I would we would never go beyond our really. But if we can't we will help them find out who can yeah so.

51:07.69
louisekuchel
Yeah, fantastic. Wow! This is so good I Can't wait for people to hear more about that. Seriously, that's um, very well. It's I only care about helping people access. That's what I'm why I've done this myself is to.

51:15.40
Christina Keeble
Thank you.

51:22.70
Christina Keeble
Yes, yeah, yeah.

51:26.23
louisekuchel
Do a bit like what you just said to just try and put people in contact with where they can get the help that they're so desperately crying out for. So yeah, yeah, that's wonderful. Yeah.

51:33.66
Christina Keeble
Absolute giving them those giving them those connections and and you don't you know until you're in it. You may not have any previous knowledge on you know I didn't on advocacy or anything and and as far as the the other thing we've noticed especially so we are in Victoria melbourne.

51:43.19
louisekuchel
Yeah, no neither did I.

51:53.33
Christina Keeble
So We're classed as Metro. So we you know our families were the ones in the longest lockdown I'm lucky I live regional so there were times when Melbourne was locked down where my house wasn't but the families we've been supporting um, have been the ones who have been in this. You know most lockdown city in the world. Um, and we saw very clearly we saw the shift we saw the shift happen from the main focus of our appointments was let's say related specifically to Ot or.

52:12.87
louisekuchel
Yeah.

52:32.16
Christina Keeble
Typically to you know, whatever the discipline was to mental health and we saw it and there were a handful in a very short period of time of mental Health crises with some clients where we had to sit down and and really figure out how to approach and to support in general.

52:33.30
louisekuchel
Brought yep.

52:50.91
Christina Keeble
Um, and and it was you know clients these the couple that I'm thinking about they were um, you know 12 but young young 12 to 25 year olds in there and the youth and mental health was not.

53:01.36
louisekuchel
Um, yeah.

53:07.78
Christina Keeble
What was the issue originally and it had then come to the forefront and so so we'd had to shift our approach and and um so there's that is definitely impacting a lot of families right now and we are now back in. So.

53:08.25
louisekuchel
Yes.

53:24.60
Christina Keeble
School and the amount of families that we're hearing with the school can't days is huge and and I myself 1 of my children is a school can't child and it's been. It's it's been a struggle at home as well. And um, it's.

53:31.76
louisekuchel
He.

53:41.89
Christina Keeble
It's it's so hard I've I've got another child who during this time so during these past 2 eighteen months 2 years with the Pandemic. We actually moved them out of the school system into virtual school now. Ah, 1 of my children did really well during online learning. Once they found the system once they figured it out and so we did that for their mental health because the being in school was more detrimental and damaging to their mental health and we've had since they started virtual school victoria which here is still the public system but it's online.

54:15.31
louisekuchel
Yeah, we've got that too. It's called distance Education in New South Wales. Yeah I think it's the same thing. Yeah.

54:17.96
Christina Keeble
Ah, yes, yes, yes, so it would be yeah I know every state has it So since they've started that their mental health has just flourished and they are definitely you know. However, this child of mine is academically geared and motivated.

54:36.15
louisekuchel
Yeah, right? yeah.

54:37.77
Christina Keeble
And it suits them. But there's a very small percentage of kids that it suits. Um and I'm lucky I have 1 of them my other my other child needs to go and it's just such a challenge with the school can't and um, the school's shutting down all the time is impacting it. The.

54:44.60
louisekuchel
Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

54:56.71
Christina Keeble
Stress around you know I'm seeing a lot of anxiety around stress and fear of getting sick or you know it's just misinformation of yeah.

55:04.10
louisekuchel
Yes, oh it's it's absolute yeah Minefield and it's just really causing so many problems I'm just hearing so much more about the kids that can't go to school they just they just can't do it. Yeah, and yeah.

55:17.70
Christina Keeble
Um, it. It's definitely the system you know in general is not designed you know is not designed to support the social emotional development of children which it it definitely needs to especially at the moment you know the.

55:28.31
louisekuchel
Yeah.

55:36.10
Christina Keeble
Healing and the the feeling safe again is what the kids need to feel and yeah, then there's the push for academics and it's just it's just too much at the moment for most kids and I do find a lot of families end up having to seek alternative schooling options or homeschool for their children.

55:37.29
louisekuchel
The air.

55:51.47
louisekuchel
Um, yeah, know so many families in that position as well And um, okay so I was now going to ask you a little bit about your mentors books.

55:54.86
Christina Keeble
In order to preserve and and help their mental health flourish.

56:10.66
louisekuchel
Resources and anything else that you may have not shared yet that you really want to share with listeners because I can see that for a start This episode is going to have about a million resources connected to it because I connect them all on my website so people can access you know all the things you're talking about.

56:24.43
Christina Keeble
Yeah, yes.

56:29.96
louisekuchel
And um, contact to you and all of that. Um, yeah, so tell us is there anything else that you want to share and are there people or mentors or books or whatever that you recommend that we look at little bit open little bit of an open question. Ah.

56:39.12
Christina Keeble
Ah, definitely that that could be a whole show in itself. So I won't go through the for the entire list. Yeah um I know I know you did mention my intereption and co-regulation webinar and I get so I do several several ones. But.

56:52.62
louisekuchel
M.

56:58.46
Christina Keeble
That 1 I I just I feel like it's 1 of the most important because it is the missing pieces. It is if anybody has ever worked as a teacher or worked with kids or kids with disabilities. It is the missing.

57:03.49
louisekuchel
Yes I agree.

57:15.40
louisekuchel
I agree. Yeah.

57:16.30
Christina Keeble
Pieces I when I learned about it I had so many light bulb moments going. That's why this wasn't working and those Concepts you know and and I just think that's really important even if it's not my webinar. You know, like just understanding those. Um.

57:27.60
louisekuchel
Yeah, at least look into interraception and co-regulation. Yes, yes.

57:34.31
Christina Keeble
Absolutely Um, and so as far as there is an amazing actually free resource. Um that the department of education for South Australia has on interoception and I've looked through it. You know parents could could.

57:45.25
louisekuchel
Now. Are you.

57:53.73
Christina Keeble
Learn a lot from it as well. Even though it's on the department of Ed and I got to say they they have a lot of good resources on there on their website.

57:57.51
louisekuchel
Well actually the south australian department of education 1 of the with new south wales are the only 2 states that seem to be actually trying to do something about helping neurodivergent students to access education. So maybe that's where that comes from.

58:07.67
Christina Keeble
Yeah, yeah, I was yeah possibly and I know that um Dr. Emma goodall who's a neurodiergent researcher is the 1 the main author behind that so it is an. Extremely valuable resource. Um, and I also know Dr. Wen lawson um does a lot of work with the south australian department of education as well and they are Neuro divergent themselves. Um, really I guess my number 1 is.

58:28.41
louisekuchel
E.

58:46.67
Christina Keeble
Recommendation to in particular well to families and to teachers is you know, look to those with the live Neuro divergent experience. You know the individuals who are autistic themselves who are edhd Um, and you know there are professionals as well. Like you know.

58:53.33
louisekuchel
Um.

59:04.96
louisekuchel
I Knew you were going to say cheron because she's been in my head this whole time. We've been talking. Of course you do? Yeah yeah, you remind me of her a lot.

59:06.56
Christina Keeble
Like myself another 1 that comes to mind is Dr. shobhan lamb. Yeah yeah, yeah, her and I seem to have a lot in common actually on on a journey that had yeah.

59:22.70
louisekuchel
Yes, she's awesome. Yeah.

59:23.53
Christina Keeble
I look forward to meeting her 1 day because I haven't yet. Um and and the um 2 organizations that pop into mind the autistic realm australia and um, reframing autism is another great 1 Um, ah my special child by Rebecca perkins.

59:32.33
louisekuchel
Yeah, yeah.

59:41.57
louisekuchel
Yeah.

59:43.28
Christina Keeble
Um, is great there I I gotta say this 1 It's Autism Goals school advocate now I have had the pleasure of working alongside Pauline Aquiina and her team. Um I have 1 Definitely 1 client that we share where we are both part of their care team. Um, and I just got to say what pauline does is amazing. Um, and I am in awe of her. Um, she's she's helped me as far as with my knowledge as well learning to to try and So. Court and advocate but pauline was actually a. She's a former school Principal Primary School Principal And yeah, so so talk about Understanding. Um.

01:00:25.55
louisekuchel
Awesome Mm Yeah exactly they're the people we need to listen to. We need to listen to autistic voices and Neuro divergent voices. But also we need to listen to those who have sat in the hot seat of being the person in charge of a school.

01:00:40.38
Christina Keeble
Absolutely.

01:00:44.57
louisekuchel
And had to make those decisions. They are so important to understand their perspective. Yeah.

01:00:46.95
Christina Keeble
Absolutely And and I know within Pauline's family. There's Neuro divergency and you know, um so she definitely understands it. Yeah and so she's an amazing advocate and her team I know that it's grown. Um.

01:00:52.11
louisekuchel
Okay, that would help. Yeah, who yeah yes.

01:01:04.59
Christina Keeble
Obviously things like Mona della hook and Beyond behaviors I always say if if if a child is a school can't a high anxiety potential pda or I always say that's the go to book that kind of wraps everything up nicely? Um Dr. Ross green his approach and the explosive child is important.

01:01:12.89
louisekuchel
Um, yeah.

01:01:24.17
Christina Keeble
I've done his training his 2 or 3 day training. He's amazing. However, what I think sometimes gets misunderstood is that in order for his approach to follow it. Um, ah correctly and for it to have the best benefit. There are a few assumptions that are within that. So 1 of them is that you already have a trusting relationship with the child so I was at the training and there was a question asked by a practitioner and and it was very specific and the first thing that Dr. Ross green said was do you have a trusting relationship with this client and they go not yet. We're working on it.

01:01:43.22
louisekuchel
A.

01:02:02.23
Christina Keeble
And it's like well you can't do it until you have that? Um, so that is very important and I that would just stood out in my mind because I'd obviously read the books and and and so there's a few assumptions there and that's where some of these earlier concepts of intercetion and co-regulation.

01:02:02.94
louisekuchel
Right? right? tom.

01:02:10.75
louisekuchel
Um, yes, um.

01:02:18.52
louisekuchel
E.

01:02:20.66
Christina Keeble
You know all since you know also meeting the sensory needs. Um, you know all of that foundation means to be there in order for these collaborative. Amazing innovative approaches that he's created um, another 1 is Dr. Yeah, oh but.

01:02:23.40
louisekuchel
Yes, oh yeah.

01:02:33.77
louisekuchel
Wow You know you've just said something really powerful there I don't think you even realize you've even said that but to link the the concepts of the interraception and the co-regulation to how sometimes I guess Ross Green's work can be.

01:02:40.22
Christina Keeble
Sorry.

01:02:52.42
louisekuchel
Not butchered That's too. That's the wrong word but can be misunderstood and it needs clarification. That's so important I think that's such honestly because I have recently heard Ross Green being quoted by an aba therapist. So I don't think that he would be too pleased with that.

01:02:53.50
Christina Keeble
Today pretty simplified. Yes.

01:03:05.42
Christina Keeble
Um, oh my now.

01:03:10.54
louisekuchel
So yeah, that's right, Yeah, we have to be careful. We have to really deeply understand actually and it's a lot of work to have this deep understanding. But if we don't make ourselves link all of those things together. You're only skimming the top aren't you.

01:03:15.75
Christina Keeble
It.

01:03:23.30
Christina Keeble
Absolutely and and it it ties in with the other 2 Um I suppose mentors out there that that I'm about to mention so Dr. stuart shanker and self-reg at understanding. Um, obviously not the.

01:03:34.74
louisekuchel
E e.

01:03:41.41
Christina Keeble
Very detailed intricacies of Polyvagal Theory by by Dr Pors because I love research, but it hurts my brain. Um, but yeah, that's right exactly. But when when we look at all of these things holistically and and so I'm working on. Um.

01:03:42.35
louisekuchel
Yes, right? Just yes, but that's the whole point isn't it of why mariner wrote the her book. Yeah yeah.

01:03:56.49
louisekuchel
Um.

01:04:01.12
Christina Keeble
Developed a rough model. It's called the 5 c's model. Um, and it's about and and now it's left my mind but it's it's um, connect collaborate co-regulate celebrate and of course the fifth c I can't remember.

01:04:02.93
louisekuchel
Our own.

01:04:18.22
louisekuchel
Ah know I've heard these five C's before though someone else has told me about I'll look it up and put it in the show notes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:04:20.70
Christina Keeble
Um, um, yeah I've done a post I'm I'm sure I've done I'll give you a link to it and and essentially it is taking that holistic thing and it's looking at all these bits and pieces that. You know the research is showing it. Also this actually came from because I used to get asked because I used to be a ah casual relief teacher who'd go in to the very challenging classrooms and so you have to go into the tough what they call the toughest rooms I had principals go to me. Oh you're here for that class. Great your goal today is to keep everyone in the class.

01:04:46.54
louisekuchel
Right.

01:04:57.49
Christina Keeble
Ah, sorry, keep everyone on school and everybody safe and then you know what kind of day you're in for and so so I I was able to use these five C's I didn't realize that's what I was doing but but when I thought back and analyzed this was my approach to.

01:05:01.12
louisekuchel
Ah.

01:05:16.98
Christina Keeble
How I would go in how I would quickly connect as as quickly as you can as a casual teacher and also I was very used to you know I walk in and chairs are being thrown. You know, swearing and people are getting you know, aggressive because I'm the ah disruption you know I'm the problem.

01:05:17.53
louisekuchel
Yeah.

01:05:34.45
louisekuchel
Who.

01:05:36.45
Christina Keeble
But anyway, so so it's how I would help to de-escalate that and support them so we could get through the day and and it's an approach that incorporates everything from you know, laying the foundation. Ah, and then being able to also incorporate these other.

01:05:43.70
louisekuchel
Right.

01:05:56.90
Christina Keeble
Things and at the center of it All is connection and and that is the that is the center um and everything else such as meeting their basic needs meeting their sensory needs. Um, you know, collaborating with them. You know if you have that connection and thinking about.

01:05:56.91
louisekuchel
Um, m.

01:06:15.85
Christina Keeble
Top down versus bottom up using compassion all of that it's It's all in there. But the the center is connection.

01:06:17.98
louisekuchel
Yeah, yeah, right? Okay, fascinating. Oh that's really good. Is there anything else that you'd like to add.

01:06:29.23
Christina Keeble
Um I Guess the other thing I'd like to say for parents is in related going back a little bit in relation to advocating I want parents to understand that unfortunately they need to be prepared for it.

01:06:38.88
louisekuchel
Yeah.

01:06:48.83
Christina Keeble
Um I want them to understand that if their child gets a diagnosis. Um, it is a signpost and it is a label that is intended to provide protection through the disability discrimination Act Education standards. Please read it and understand it. Always any communication with a school. Always do it in writing preferably email and request a response in writing let them know that your preferred mode of communication that you do not wish to engage on the phone that you want to either have minuteed notes in a meeting or communication via email And. Do Not like always push trust that mom intuition if something doesn't feel right push for more answers. Um, this is not all schools. Okay I Love schools. This is not all of them. But you know in my personal experience I have seen parents bullied Eyes I was lied to flat faced.

01:07:35.91
louisekuchel
Um, yeah, no.

01:07:47.89
Christina Keeble
By 1 of my ah school that my kids were involved in and I looked at them and I said you forgot what I do don't you and and they had I think and and so you know don't be intimidated. Don't take bullying and you don't have to do it alone. You can get an advocate. You are entitled to 1

01:07:56.54
louisekuchel
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:08:07.61
Christina Keeble
And and and make sure yeah reach out if they need support. It is.

01:08:12.61
louisekuchel
It's a tough job but with's what we have to do what fantastic way to finish off our chat today. Thank you so much christina that some I knew you were going to be good I knew you were I was right? um.

01:08:22.31
Christina Keeble
Um, ah, thanks's lovely to hear.

01:08:29.89
louisekuchel
Well actually chibon chibron actually said to me. Oh yeah, christina's really good I went oh good. Well I've got the right I've got the right person here. So thank you? That's that's really excellent and thank you so much for being on the podcast today I'll sign us off now just hang on there for a minute but.

01:08:32.80
Christina Keeble
Um, ah are the.

01:08:48.62
Christina Keeble
Thanks so much for having me. It's been a real pleasure.

01:08:48.85
louisekuchel
Thanks so much Christina Okay bye.