Lou and George talk about "the human right to read, write and numerate" as George put it. They discuss the correct language used to describe learning disorders Dyslexia, Dysgraphia and Dyscalculia. The diagnosis and school experiences, teachers' approaches, George explains some key messages for parents and teachers, where to get help and access supportive resources, reasonable adjustments, assistive technology and more. George dispels myths associated with learning disorders, and there are many. It's a very informative "part one" discussion about learning disorders. More to come on this can of worms!
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Resources discussed during this episode:
SPELD NSW: https://www.speldnsw.org.au/
State SPELD organisations AUSPELD: https://auspeld.org.au/state-associations/
Dyslexia Support Australia - Dyslexia Support Australia | Facebook
Dyslexia Victoria Support - Dyslexia Victoria Support | Facebook
AUSPELD Understanding Learning Difficulties Guide: Parent's Guide – Understanding Learning Difficulties – A guide for Parents (uldforparents.com)
Think Forward Educators - Think Forward Educators
Reading Science in Schools - Reading Science in Schools | Facebook
| Timestamp Speaker Transcript | | | | | |
| 00:00.16 louisekuchel I'll take out all these bits at the beginning. So it's recording now. Can you just quickly say something just so I can check your voice. Oh brilliant I can see that. Okay so I'll take all of that out right? Well I'll start now then Welcome to Square pair ground hole the podcast where we discuss.
| 00:05.37 George Perry Hi how you going This is love good. Take it. | | |
| 00:19.66 louisekuchel Diversity and how to embrace our neurodivergent kids at home at school and in the workplace today we're talking to georgina perry from spelled and we are talking about learning differences and learning disabilities welcome to the podcast georgina.
| 00:34.72 George Perry Thanks so much Lou It's great to be here. | | |
| 00:39.76 louisekuchel I'm so glad to have you here now. What do I call you is my first question george or georgina george okay I will do that. That's what I have called you before? um so george let's get started. We've got um.
| 00:41.61 George Perry You can you can call me George pretty much everyone does. Yeah. |
| 00:57.27 louisekuchel Gonna do things slightly differently today. Um | we'll start with our icebreaker questions that we always do and then I'm going to let you introduce yourself because I think that would be really and a different way of doing things and a way that we can get to know a bit of your background etc. Um.
| 01:03.88 George Perry So. | | | | | | |
| 01:15.60 louisekuchel Okay | so the first question I have for you is when the pandemic is over and we can travel again. Where do you want to go and why george.
| 01:23.87 George Perry Oh well | many many places but I think for this I think I've picked Japan for the moment. It's probably the first place I'd like to go I haven't been to before I'd love to I've always wanted to go to Japan I think it's a great place to travel with my kids and I kind of also feel their own a bit of tourism.
| 01:31.34 louisekuchel Okay. | | | | | | |
| 01:40.49 louisekuchel Yeah I think we all are. | | | | |
| 01:42.12 George Perry Host the olympics that they didn't have so that they got us they goes through they yeah ever audience but they got us through a good part of our lockdown early part of our lockdown with those great olympics and so I think I'd love to take my kids to see the rest of the country.
| 01:54.59 louisekuchel So good I haven't been either and it's my husband's favorite country and so I really want to go as well for the food for the beautiful scenery. The people it's very clean. Apparently so yeah | that yeah I'm with you on Japan and that makes total sense good on you. |
| 02:01.42 George Perry Oh the food. Oh. | | | | | |
| 02:14.36 louisekuchel Um | and the second question for you is if you could have a superpower. What would it be and why.
| 02:18.78 George Perry I I think I'm saying this correctly apparration from my the Harry potter that I watch and listen to with my son so they could get places faster and be slightly less late because I wouldn't have to do the transit. Um | so I think it's. | | | | | | |
| 02:31.96 louisekuchel Oh so like to remind me of that because I have seen that happen. Yeah | right? yes. | | | | | | |
| 02:37.39 George Perry Just the ability to well what I meant was the ability to travel in time travel travel from 1 place to another immediately. So that's what I would like to be able to do so that I don't have to have the commute to 1 place to another. It is yes true true.
| 02:49.32 louisekuchel That's so cool. It's so boring in the car isn't it unless you're listening podcast of course. Okay brilliant. Oh that's good. Um | and the final question is what is your connection to the concept of the Square peg in the round hole.
| 03:04.25 George Perry Sure? Well I'm personally dyslexic and dygraphic and so I have um neurodivergencies myself and I also work for spelled New South Wales which is an organization that works to support kids and adults that have specific learning Difficulties. So both personally and professionally. And as I'm sure will come to later in my broader family.
| 03:23.28 louisekuchel Brilliant. Can't wait to hear more so you're a peg. Well I really I think that this we haven't talked about these types of conditions like Dyslexia and and these things um yet. But.
| 03:30.10 George Perry I'm a Pig proudly. | | | | | |
| 03:42.24 louisekuchel I Do really feel it it very much links to the concept of the Square peg and the round hole doesn't it. It's very prevalent things and and it's about not trying to bash that peg to fit into the environment. It's about changing the environment which is very much about the concept.
| 03:59.50 George Perry Yeah | and about and about understanding yourself as well. | | |
| 04:01.38 louisekuchel Yes | right? Exactly exactly fantastic all right? Well | let's move on to that. So as I mentioned um I haven't done an introduction for you already. So people won't know anything about you. Um | if you could please tell us a little bit about your life growing up and also your professional life and your family which you've just alluded to and and just give us sort of where how did you get to where you are today.
| 04:29.45 George Perry Sure | um | so I was very lucky growing up I had a lot of parental support from both my mom and my dad and I've got a lovely younger sister victoria and we had a really close family I particularly my early struggled a little with school There's a number of things I found hard and. Um | yeah | and and my parents were were were quite keen to see if they could get me assessed to see if there was something going on with my learning. Um the school wasn't massively keen and they ended up assessing me privately. Um and then I found out and I think it was year four or year five that I had dyslexia and dysgraphia um. I have regularly many people who know me will have heard this story but that was 1 of the best days I think that I can remember in my childhood because that was the day that I learned out I learned I wasn't stupid and there was a reason things were hard so knowing that about myself was such a really powerful thing for me I went on to do quite well at school.
| 05:19.64 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | |
| 05:27.77 George Perry School and then I studied law at university um | and having understanding about how my brain worked and what was going to be hard and what was going to be easy really helped me forge a path that allowed me to combine both my skills and my interests I then was a lawyer for almost twenty years
| 05:41.13 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | |
| 05:47.36 George Perry Both a corporate lawyer and in Pro bono um | in the pro Bono practice at a large law firm. Um | during this time I was on the board and worked with a range of charities in a voluntary position I always wanted to make a contribution through my professional work and then ultimately. Soon after my son was diagnosed with dyslexia when he was in year one um I saw the role of executive officer as spelled new south wales being advertised and thought well that is just my dream job and thankfully was very lucky to apply and get. Role and I've been at spelled now for just over 4 years no No no | no | yeah I'm I'm I'm a lawyer who has massively geeked out on all things education and literacy and learning.
| 06:23.23 louisekuchel So you've got a lawyer background not a T O thought you were going to say you had a teaching background you knew I'd think that right? awesome.
| 06:37.44 louisekuchel Because of your own lived experience and passion for it because of your family. Wow.
| 06:40.31 George Perry Yeah | and my son. Yeah my son and yeah | um | you know | literacies a human rights my my background in terms of charities in the not-for-profit sector is really a human rights focus. That's what I was really interested at law school and I did a lot of work I was on the board of Amnesty international australia for 10 years um so I have a human rights background. But the reason other than my personal history and family story. Um is why it's spelled is because I would love you know every child has the right to learn to read and write and to be near it and so that's what we're all about.
| 07:17.12 louisekuchel That's fantastic. Yeah. | | | | |
| 07:20.14 George Perry Um | it's it's Dyslexia is something that is definitely very prevalent in my family and we've got my son. We've got me my father although I think he was undiagnosed but it's pretty clear that he was dyslexic and my paternal uncle gavin who hi Gavin if you're listening um | has had dyslexia. | | | | | |
| 07:27.52 louisekuchel Um | yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 07:34.40 louisekuchel Cool I Hope you are listening Gavin make sure lots of other people listen too. Yeah wow | That's um | that's interesting I Love that link between the human right to an education and and to be able to learn to read.
| 07:39.11 George Perry He's in america. | | | | | |
| 07:51.18 louisekuchel And how you've got this human rights background that's moved into something like this this is something I did not expect you to say Well | that's so good. Excellent How many kids have you got? Okay | oh okay | yep | cool. | | | | |
| 07:53.26 George Perry Oh. | | | | | | |
| 08:01.11 George Perry 2 so 1 who's in year six and one who's in kindi. | | |
| 08:08.98 louisekuchel Right? Oh so you're going through all of the um experiences. Ah | and now you're about to switch into high school as well. Interesting times been through that. Oh well | that's very interesting. Thank you so much for giving us a bit of your background unexpected Now let's.
| 08:13.54 George Perry Yes | yes | bowing goes. | | | | | |
| 08:22.60 George Perry Um | that's fine. | | | | | | |
| 08:27.67 louisekuchel Start talking about what we're here to talk about Um George Please could you explain to us what actually are learning disabilities. Are they even referred to that way I mean what is the correct language to use when referring to these conditions.
| 08:40.61 George Perry Ah there's a range of different language. You can use. Um | what they're called under the dsm five the diagnostic and stasistic manual is specific learning disorders. Um | and the reason we say specific is quite powerful because it's actually the impact is in a specific area. So if you have Dyslexia it's a specific learning disorder in reading. So it ah affects your ability to to learn to read | but it doesn't necessarily affect any of your other academic skills. Um.
| 09:07.98 louisekuchel Um | yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 09:10.87 George Perry And if you've got dysgraphia that affects your ability to learn to read to spell and to write and potentially the motor side of writing with handwriting difficulties as well can be combined in there. Um | and then if you've got dyscalculia then you've got a specific learning disorder in maths which affects your. Ability to learn to be numerate and your mathematical abilities and so students that have discap dyscalculia might be really strong readers writers and spellers but might have really great difficulties in maths and vice versa. Um | and so that's word specific is quite important. | | |
| 09:40.33 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | |
| 09:46.80 George Perry Because that's a real characterization of how they impact students' learning but essentially they are a group of learning disorders or disabilities or difficulties. Um | that mean that students have difficulty developing their literacy and numeracy skills. Um.
| 09:59.82 louisekuchel Okay. | | | | | | |
| 10:02.78 George Perry Whether or not you say I have a specific learning disorder and reading or I have dysgraphia is really up to the individual I tend to describe myself as disgraphic and dyscalculic. No I don't because I just called myself Dyscalculic which I'm really not I tend to to tend to describe by myself.
| 10:13.10 louisekuchel Yeah | I'm sorry yes only she corrected yourself. | | | |
| 10:22.16 George Perry As yeah | ah 1 of the difficulties with Dyslexia is um is ah a rapids rapid on my rapidation. Oh my goodness can we cut this with to thattic and ah sorry yeah | can come back and yeah. | | | | |
| 10:25.44 louisekuchel Um | ah. | | | | | | | |
| 10:32.79 louisekuchel Yeah | we'll cut it. We'll cut it better. It's good What you're saying. It's good | but you can maybe cover that later. But yes of course I can cut that out. Yeah.
| 10:42.13 George Perry So I'll just so I tend to describe myself as dyslexic and disgraphic but it's very much up to the individual how they those use those terms I think there's not huge sensitivity within this in the community about language but there is different language and it's really important to be aware that.
| 10:46.10 louisekuchel The app. | | | | | |
| 11:01.92 George Perry Um | and that's 1 of the confusions. Sometimes you'll get a psychologist report with it which is a diagnostic report that will say this is a student with a specific learning learning disorder in reading and the family won't understand what that means is dyslexia and so that's 1 of the things that's really important to understand is that.
| 11:11.54 louisekuchel Um | who yes. | | | | | | | |
| 11:20.89 George Perry Interchangeable terms there. Um and some people do from a professional perspective refer 1 or another and from a personal perspective prefer 1 or another.
| 11:28.19 louisekuchel Well | that's really important to understand and so are there any other dises. There's you've mentioned Dysgraphia Dyslexia Dyscalculia what about dyspraxia. Yep.
| 11:40.45 George Perry Yes | so dyspraxia is a difficulty with motor planning an organization I am not at all an expert in that space because it's not a learning disorder. It's a dis means is a prefix which means difficulty so it is an area of difficulty but it's not 1 that.
| 11:49.29 louisekuchel Yet Not right? Yes | yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 12:00.12 George Perry I've got any particular strong knowledge about so I don't like to step outside my um area and and purport to talk about things that I ah can't talk to.
| 12:01.20 louisekuchel Okay | yes | and fair enough. Yeah. | | | | |
| 12:08.64 louisekuchel of of course yes no I just wondered there's no | there's no so it's really just those 3 that that you focus on in your professional life. Yeah | okay | and my next question. Well I just had a question that came into my head while you were talking which was you mentioned that.
| 12:14.12 George Perry Did yeah | that's the 3 that. Yeah absolutely yep. | | | | |
| 12:26.69 louisekuchel Not everyone who has dysgraphia will have dyscalculia and you know you you could have all or none or 1 is there any sort of pattern there in terms of are you more likely to have the 2 literacy ones and not the maths 1 does that make sense as a question.
| 12:40.35 George Perry I I don't know the figures but I suspect that the 2 literacy ones commonly overlap. Um | but you do come across students all the time that will have a combination of the different specific learning disorders. The other thing that you will also see is students that have.
| 12:45.37 louisekuchel Okay | yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 12:53.13 louisekuchel The. | | | | | | |
| 12:57.70 George Perry Other um difficulties or disabilities. There's a huge comorbidity between dyslexia and adhd which is as high as 50 um students. There's not necessarily a correlation between students who who have audance spectrum disorder and and specific learning disorders. But there is definitely a crossover.
| 13:04.10 louisekuchel Yes | right? yeah. | | | | | | |
| 13:14.98 louisekuchel I mean. | | | | | |
| 13:16.37 George Perry And also there's ah there is definitely a crossover also with students that have language disorders and so students can have a specific lening disorder and another difficulty or disability.
| 13:25.49 louisekuchel I Want to get into that a bit more. It becomes a bit complicated and complex I get it. But it's important to sort of have an understanding I think a basic understanding as a parent especially about what you know how these things kind of present and what they look like yeah um.
| 13:38.46 George Perry Absolutely. | | | | | |
| 13:43.84 louisekuchel Okay | that does lead into the next question which is about being misdiagnosed or understanding what you're seeing in the early years. So I hear not this hasn't really been my own personal experience. But I do hear people talking about it a lot that. These learning differences or learning difficulties can be missed or misdiagnosed in the early years you hear it a lot about Dyslexia. Don't you? Um | what are the long-term issues that this leads to or what sort of what are the problems that you're seeing in this area of diagnosis.
| 14:06.34 George Perry Oh. | | | | | | |
| 14:13.97 George Perry Yeah | absolutely and I think it's because these are students that go to school not understanding. They have a difficulty or a disability they have had um | a preschool education that would be very similar to other preschool educations. There might have been. Ah | few red flags I'm looking back on my son's preschool education I can see the things that I now know were red flags but they weren't significant enough to have an impact on how he participated in his preschool education and so they go to school expecting to learn to read just like their sisters or Brothers or peers. Um.
| 14:42.64 louisekuchel We. | | | | | | |
| 14:50.16 George Perry And then they have this difficulty with either numbers or words or letters that's completely unexpected and also might be particular to just you know they're great at maths but they have a bit of difficulty with their reading. Um | and so it's because there isn't big and that's why schools are just. | |
| 14:59.74 louisekuchel Who. | | | | | | |
| 15:06.75 George Perry So important and this why it's so important that schools and teachers understand about the specific learning disorders because teachers are such an important group of people in helping identify these difficulties. Um | and you know 1 of the things that we do. | | | |
| 15:17.37 louisekuchel Who. | | | | | | |
| 15:22.48 George Perry World is a lot of teacher professional learning and we always find that teachers are very keen to learn more about specific learning disorders because they're not really given enough information when they're a university to understand the impact that they can have in the classroom and the prevalence that might be in their classroom. So.
| 15:35.23 louisekuchel Um | no | that's what we're gonna unpack that a lot more because I I just know that that was coming because it's 1 thing 1 message it has got out there to the rest of the world is I've heard about.
| 15:39.62 George Perry That was a bit of a sidestep but what you asked was the long-term impact. Sure.
| 15:54.92 louisekuchel How important these early years are and I've heard these things about the learn the phonics testing and things like that you know you hear um of different organizations that are really focusing on that and so that's why I ask that question about you know what is what's happening in the early years. Can you describe.
| 16:00.10 George Perry Um | ah. | | | | | | | |
| 16:14.63 louisekuchel To Um | like think you're talking to parents what sorts of things would they see as red flags you mentioned red flags. But what are those red flags.
| 16:23.24 George Perry Yeah | so in the preschool years. It's a little bit more amorphous but what you might see is maybe um | a slight delay in language or um | some maybe some early speech difficulties that doesn't necessarily mean the student will have a specific learning Disorder. It's just.. There is a correlation there um 1 area that you might see is they might have difficulty developing some of these very early literacy skills so learning the letter sounds being able to blend sounds together in preschool that might look like a difficulty with rhyming which is an which is an earlier phonological awareness school but not all students. Well um. So or even just with students who you know in the preschool years. Um | ah literacy and Numeracy instruction is very much student Led Um | um | that's very much the early education approach to those sorts of things and so maybe it's just a lack of interest in engaging in those tasks. But then when we get to school.
| 17:16.15 louisekuchel Who. | | | | | | |
| 17:21.10 George Perry What we start to see is that students who struggle um with learning letter sound relationships the ability to blend sounds together to learn words. Um an inaccuracy in word reading or a slowness and a lack of um wisdom for the literacy side of things a lack of. Fluency in developing their reading skills and so we look for students that are slower than their peers in developing those skills and 1 of the things that is sometimes said with the literacy difficulties is you know things like just give them a little bit longer. They're young for the year or they're a boy and boys take a bit longer or we just have to find a book.
| 17:46.56 louisekuchel Oh. | | | | | | |
| 17:59.74 George Perry They're interested in. Um | those are the sorts of things that we think um | shouldn't be said in relation to someone's developing. Someone's literacy skills if you're um | concerned about a student developing literacy skills throughout kindergarten and a year 1 and they don't seem to be um. Becoming a reader as quickly as their peers or as quickly as their siblings might have then it's definitely worth talking to your the classroom teacher and if that doesn't if you're not feeling like you're hearing answers at that point if the teacher doesn't really know the answers then. Talk to either the learning support teacher or the assistant principal or the Principal in the early years it's really important to get on to literacy and numeracy difficulties because early intervention as with all sorts of early intervention is so effective. Um | and you can really um | have a much bigger. You know | not not much bigger hack. You can have a really big impact with with early intervention saying that for students of any age. Um literacy and numeracy interventions are definitely worth undertaking and we know very many so you know. High schoolers or students in upper primary who have undertaken a literacy intervention for the first time and really seen some great gains in their literacy or numeracy. Um | but yeah | um | we want to make sure that you know to the extent possible. We we pick kids early that are struggling.
| 19:14.17 louisekuchel Who. | | | | | | |
| 19:20.27 louisekuchel Is there any particular age that they would be at where you would be like no I've ah real my gut feel is that there's something going on here but now they're going into year 3 for example and yeah is is there sort of a cutoff Mark or is it just to kick to go with your own.
| 19:31.68 George Perry Are. | | | | | | |
| 19:40.10 louisekuchel Sort of gut feel of what's not right as you just described mm. |
| 19:40.83 George Perry I I think parents often do have a very strong gut feel and I think actually 1 of the things we've seen is with this lockdown.. Although we're still kind of just coming out of this 1 But definitely. We saw out of the last 1 Parents were very um | aware of how the difficulties their students were having the children were having with learning in the lockdown because they could see right in front of them. The areas that they were struggling so we run a free parent phone line for parents who can call in to ask for help and support or information or suggestions or referrals to tudors.
| 19:59.00 louisekuchel Um. | | | | | | |
| 20:13.22 George Perry And we were you know | really flattered with calls after the last lockdown. Yeah um | and we're expecting that I think I think you know we'll see probably not quite as many because um | a lot of families have have you know taken some steps forward. But I think we'll see a similar um awareness out of this lockdown. Um I think.
| 20:13.64 louisekuchel Where you ah. | | | | | |
| 20:31.29 George Perry 2 really typical presentations of particularly the literacy difficulties 1 is a student in kindergarten who is very. It's very plain that they're struggling from the beginning they find all literacy tasks hard and they're really not acquiring the skills. Both the word reading and the phonic skills.
| 20:32.17 louisekuchel And. | | | | | | |
| 20:49.58 George Perry That that you would expect them to have so it's really obvious very early on they're struggling and another another presentation of of literacy difficulties which is also quite typical is a student who um | particularly 1 who's in what we call a whole language classroom. So not so much a classroom that uses a lot of explicit phonics instruction. Um | they can very much appear like they're reading and very much use all the context clues and their strong oral language skills to look like they're reading and then then we start seeing them having difficulties in year 3 and four so it's quite common for students to be identified around that year 3 and four mark.
| 21:22.39 louisekuchel M. | | | | | | |
| 21:28.17 George Perry Um | we're optimistic with tools such as the phonics check um and the change that the new south wales and that ness is making to the syllabus in new south wales to make it include much more phonics and be much more explicit will help us identify students a lot earlier in new south wales. But. And the moment we definitely do have a group of kids that it's not until year 3 or four that we realize how much they're struggling with literacy.
| 21:51.61 louisekuchel Again on message I have heard so that's really good that you've sort of outlined what that is. Thank you? Awesome! Um | and just moving on to teachers and how they approach the adjustments. Um. I Understand there would be some and complexities involved with multiple learning disabilities and neurodivergent conditions other neurodiergent conditions. For example | how do teachers approach and you alluded to this before adjustments for a child who for example would have Adhd and dyscalculia. Compared to a child that may be autistic and dyslexic or you know those kinds of combinations is there something that um | that teachers do to approach those differently. | |
| 22:33.99 George Perry Yeah | so I think this when we're talking about the specific learning disorders. There's 2 things we need to keep in mind 1 is that we want to be seeing students getting intervention and by intervention I mean additional support and instruction. In the classroom and ideally outside the classroom with learning support um to help them improve their literacy and numeracy skills. It's not just about making changes to how the classroom operates so that they're better able to function. 1 thing. We're very much looking forward to for whatever age. Um student is is for them to have some. Additional support so that they can improve their literacy in Numeracy skills. Um | almost all students who have a specific learning disorder can see some improvement in their literacy and numeracy skills with specific interventions and intensive support. So that's 1 thing we're looking for.
| 23:22.73 louisekuchel Okay | yep. | | | | | | | |
| 23:26.80 George Perry The other thing we are looking for particularly once kids pass out of um | the early years of cater to when there's not an assumption that students are able to be fully literate and numerate to access the curriculum once we get into Year 3 plus where there is an assumption that kids can read what you put in front of them. Um | is that we want to see some adjustments. We want to see changes to way how the classroom operates so that students can access the learning and that they can demonstrate the learning now that's what I'm looking for for a student with specific learning difficulties of course students are complex beings and often have more than 1 um.
| 23:52.20 louisekuchel Okay. | | | | | | |
| 24:04.32 George Perry Difficulty or disability or more 1 than 1 neuro divergent condition. Um | they also bring their personalities and their cells to the equation and so it it is very much planning for adjustments. An individual thing you know | um. | | | | | | |
| 24:16.88 louisekuchel Ah. | | | | | | |
| 24:19.41 George Perry You need to have that conversation. You know with the family with the student and plan for what's going to suit them best um 1 you know a few specific examples is you need to think about if you have a student who has a language disorder. Are you using an intervention that is heavy in language. Are you.
| 24:24.57 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | |
| 24:37.55 George Perry Expecting them to understand large amounts of language in order to access that intervention that's going to be challenging for them. You might need to think about ways to just simplify and so and um | condense the language so that they're not spending all of their energy attending to the the language that they're hearing.
| 24:54.65 louisekuchel Um | yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 24:56.50 George Perry And can attend to the literacy learning so you know or if we've got a student with Adhd How how do they? How do you engage their intention. How do you engage? Um | you know what's best for them in terms of learning. Do they need some movement. Do they need movement breaks is the morning but in the afternoon. Once again | lots of language might not be best for those learners. But once again as we know it's going to be very Individual. So I Think if you're supporting a student who has a specific learning disorder you need to think about what else is going on for them and think about what does that mean.
| 25:17.69 louisekuchel O a. | | | | | | |
| 25:31.80 louisekuchel Mean. | | | | | | |
| 25:32.51 George Perry How do I change What might be the typical support to be accessible for them considering all of the things that they bring.
| 25:38.53 louisekuchel I can imagine. It's really hard and challenging for teachers you know | but there are multiple barriers and if you only address the barriers associated with the Adhd for example | but then they are still not receiving adjustments or access to Technologies for the dyslexia Then you're only doing half of the.
| 25:58.50 George Perry Yeah | it is a really complex picture for teachers and hopefully they can get support within school and further professional learning and we're of course there to provide support for teachers that are struggling if you want to reach out to us if you're not sure how to support that your students we're happy to hear from you? Um | but yeah | it is. | | | | | |
| 25:58.53 louisekuchel Half of the thing. Yes | ah yeah | yes | yep. | | | | | |
| 26:17.46 George Perry It is very much about understanding your student. Um and the impact that their their disabilities have.
| 26:19.49 louisekuchel Yeah | yeah | and they're the absolutely right? That's that's fantastic and obviously I'm going to put all the links to spelled and what what are other whatever other resources you suggest for me to Add. Definitely. Um | and there's spelled in up just before we move on just the question that I had in my head while you were talking. There's so much much to ask you about I'm just realizing um spelled is in other states isn't it. Yeah yeah.
| 26:49.36 George Perry Yeah | absolutely so I work for the spelled in new south wales but there's dyslexia spelled foundations in w a there's 1 in there's a spelled in Queensland victoria and south australia um | there's not 1 in the ac t tassie or the northern territory but families and teachers in those states.
| 26:57.91 louisekuchel Um | yeah | yep | Okay right? ah. | | | | |
| 27:09.12 George Perry Feel free to reach out to your closest spelled I'm sure we I know we'd be happy to help you.
| 27:11.69 louisekuchel Um | awesome | Great! Yes | Okay | well we'll I'll put all their those links in um so I understand there are a number of technologies that children with learning difficulties can access. Can you talk about some of those and the situations that they may be used in.
| 27:26.93 George Perry Absolutely so these are technologies that are aimed at giving students access. Most of them are literacy-based difficulties ah most in the most most of the ones I'll talk about relate to literacy difficulties but we've got technologies that are technologies that read text to students. And so they could be as simple as ah so a text-to-speech program on your computer. It could be a cpen which is a little portable device that you can use to highlight text and it reads that to you? um | not not computerized text printed text. Um | you can also get bigger form optical character recognition devices where you take say a photo with an ipad and it converts that page into speech and you can also get a range of other pdf readers. There's a really wide range of devices. Um | many of and and programs many of which are inbuilt within the device that you've got so you know your iphone and your laptop come with those technologies built in as part of their accessibility platform. So always explore those ones first before you go out and look further. Um | that can read text to students who are unable to either.
| 28:31.60 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | |
| 28:39.81 George Perry Accurately or fluently read that text to themselves. Um | so that's a great accessible Those are great accessibility tools the next set of tools are speech to text where you can talk to your computer or your device and essentially dictate what you want to say um that is asked.
| 28:41.25 louisekuchel He. | | | | | | |
| 28:59.56 George Perry I think I think you know and and most computers and ipads and phones have those things built into them. Um I must say 1 of the things that we hear all the time is that many many students including those that are highly literate are starting to use those technologies just because they actually make things easier. It's a lot easier to.
| 29:17.81 louisekuchel Um | yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 29:18.40 George Perry Speak a page of text if you're if you're not a touch typer then write it but that is this that those technologies are really great for students who are not strong spellers and find the writing composition process quite challenging. Um | I would say just for families that are looking to start with those technologies. They're all ones that need practice and learning so allow the time for students to have a go see what works with them see what they like um some students may prefer 1 technology type amount of other for example | um. | | | | | | |
| 29:50.15 louisekuchel O. | | | | | | |
| 29:52.94 George Perry You know if you're not a strong speller. You might prefer a predictive spelling program rather than speech to- text or you might prefer um using ah a more detailed spell checker such as grammarly than Speechto -t textt or you might really like speech text. There's a range of different approaches. You can take and I think the technological solutions that students adopt.
| 30:07.48 louisekuchel Um. | | | | | | |
| 30:12.55 George Perry Is very individual can be very individualised and that's 1 of the things that as kids transition from primary school into high school that they can really start finding the way that they like working. Best.
| 30:13.68 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | |
| 30:23.61 louisekuchel Yeah I know that I can relate to that myself with my older son. He just was using I think it was grammarly just someone must have shown him how to use it and he was telling me about it and he's not diagnosed with ah with Dyslexia or anything like that.
| 30:31.35 George Perry Oh. | | | | | | |
| 30:41.25 louisekuchel Um | and then my other son I can see I believe he's got dysgraphia but nothing's diagnosed So here's me talking to you and I'm like Geez I need to need to get some help here. Um | but yeah you know I can see how it's about. | | |
| 30:45.84 George Perry Are. | | | | | | |
| 30:58.37 louisekuchel Not just having access to these technologies but knowing how to use them which are the right ones to use where do people you know I mean I understand not all teachers are sort of up on all of this and that you know it's not.. It's not everyone's strength to know we're all about all of these kinds of things I Guess landing support would be there to help. But. How do you sort of suggest going about it. Is it something that you would get a tutor from spelled or somewhere like that to help with what what? yeah.
| 31:21.94 George Perry So um I think there is um so a number of the spells have got some great information and advice about assistive technology. We're we're going to be actually publishing some more detailed information. Probably at this point early next year
| 31:40.40 louisekuchel Okay. | | | | | | |
| 31:41.93 George Perry Um | and then there's also a range of other businesses. Um | that can provide support to students who want to set up assistive technology 1 that I know we've got in Australia that does a nice job is at Apps um dot Com dot a you That's ah um | that's that's ah. 1 of the many options that do exist. There's also it's also a matter of just having a look on the websites of the device that you use and looking up accessibility options because um | if you've got an ipad and that's what you use in class then finding the accessibility options that are available and native in the ipad.
| 32:09.10 louisekuchel Right. | | | | | | |
| 32:19.90 George Perry Is definitely a good way to go. But if you're using a chrome book then you want to use the ones that come with chromebook so all the computer companies are now pretty good at actually building in videos and and information on how to use those accessibility features and so just starting. There's a really easy place to start and then just giving um the student.
| 32:30.15 louisekuchel Um. | | | | | | |
| 32:36.82 louisekuchel Rod. | | | | | | |
| 32:39.00 George Perry Enough time and space to try and work out what suits them? Best Um | another set of you know | another sort of thing That's a really good tool to to try and play around with and see if it suits is mind mapping. Um.
| 32:44.74 louisekuchel We. | | | | | | |
| 32:53.50 louisekuchel Ah | yes. | | | | | | | |
| 32:55.69 George Perry To help plan for writing because if you have difficulty with the organisation if you're writing as you get into high school and you have to write longer pieces. You can use mind map software to to brainstorm and then to reorganise your ideas into a structure and actually some of the mind Map software. You can actually. Take that out and export it into a word document and then you've got you know your frame of your writing all already planned and organized. Um and that can be easier for kids who have those difficulties planning longer pieces of writing is.
| 33:24.55 louisekuchel And that's that's what disgraphia. Well | that's part of what Dysgraphia is isn't it. It's the planning of the and and and the organization and then being able to deliver the ideas out of your head onto the paper isn't it is that who.
| 33:29.64 George Perry Um | yeah | so. | | | | | | |
| 33:37.58 George Perry Absolutely so so disgraphia is a difficulty with writing writing is a really complex thing putting ah putting a piece of ah putting you know | putting together a page long story or article or information report about something is 1 of the hardest things we ask kids to do you've got to have the.
| 33:43.70 louisekuchel Right. | | | | | | |
| 33:55.86 louisekuchel Oo. | | | | | | |
| 33:56.72 George Perry Is you've got to organize the ideas you've got to organize the ideas into Paragraphs sentences. You've got to spell the words you've got to punctuate the words you've got to create the words whether you're typing them or handwriting them. There's a lot of individual things that you have to be able to do to? um.
| 34:13.90 louisekuchel Um | who. | | | | | | | |
| 34:16.37 George Perry Successfully right? And so 1 of the things we would encourage students with this graphia to do is not try and do all of that in their brains. It's going to be too hard to do all of that organizing and planning and that whole all of those individual steps now not all students who have this grapha struggle with the organization planning. Some some some students' difficulty focuses on the spelling some on the grammar some on the organization planning some on a range of those things. Um | but if you try if you take those right individual writing tasks and you do them outside your brain on pieces of paper on technology on mind Map software on a.
| 34:36.32 louisekuchel M. | | | | | | |
| 34:54.80 George Perry Using a whole lot of post-it notes if that's what suits you best? Um | that's 1 way to organize and plan your writing and in a way that you you may achieve some more success.
| 35:05.75 louisekuchel So interesting because as you said before um | working with the kids at home over these last few months that's where I've really noticed it. You know the ideas are there but it's the getting it out and getting it written.
| 35:19.47 George Perry Ah. | | | | | | |
| 35:21.40 louisekuchel And I just take it for granted that you know I guess with age and over the years I just can just type up an answer I know what they want to hear you know what I mean he can't do that. So it's very interesting. It's just a block. Yeah.
| 35:29.61 George Perry No | and that's the thing the specific like 1 of the biggest myths about the specific learning difficulties is that it's it's anything to do with intelligence. It's got nothing to do with intelligence. It's a difficulty with that particular skill. So if the difficulty is with planning and organizing writing.
| 35:38.41 louisekuchel Um | oh no | yeah yes yeah. | | | | | |
| 35:47.32 George Perry Doesn't mean that they can't have the ideas and ultimately write some beautiful writing. They just need the support to be able to go through that planning and organizing process and learn how to do that best for themselves and and you know.
| 35:51.73 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | |
| 35:57.63 louisekuchel And you see that there's part of that That's ad H D and part of that that's dy graphia and but just results of big can of worms. Yeah.
| 36:04.25 George Perry Yeah | and that that is that's that's where some of those complex interactions happen. It's sometimes hard to tell whether the impact on the planning and organizing is Adhd or if it's the disgraphia.
| 36:14.65 louisekuchel Yeah | fascinating and I see his teacher as well. This is the other thing we've been exposed to as parents doing the home learning is I can see her doing the scaffolding I can see she starts the sentences for him and all these things and she's just brilliant and.
| 36:29.88 George Perry Um. | | | | | | |
| 36:32.90 louisekuchel You know | a lot of the teachers I find I see them doing I can see what they're trying to do um | it's just you know obviously as you go on | you need to support more and understand it more and it's just an ongoing thing. But yeah | anyway | right? interesting. | | |
| 36:43.22 George Perry Yeah | and absolutely and to begin with with the writing It's great and that's sounds like a great support that that teacher is providing um and then over time your son can learn to scaffold his own writing. Yep you know.
| 36:49.84 louisekuchel Boom. | | | | | | |
| 36:55.55 louisekuchel Yes | that's the idea isn't it Well back over to her now to help him with that My time is over Thank Goodness Gees Yeah Mar is a day.
| 37:02.20 George Perry Yeah | congratulations. Yes | we're all very pleased to um acknowledge the skill and hard work that our teachers provide um our students.
| 37:12.12 louisekuchel Oh look I know it's been said before but of course of course | of course my goodness. Um | okay so let's move on to talk about advocacy which is how I met you. |
| 37:24.83 George Perry Me. | | | | | | |
| 37:26.79 louisekuchel Um | I've seen you involved with advocacy before on some of the reference groups that I'm also involved with um with the department of education and things like that. What are the challenges that are faced by the learning difficulty Disability Community. Do you have messages. Um | for the community in regard to learning disabilities or differences for example with Adhd the message is that it's not a behavioural disorder rather an executive functioning or self-regulating condition. Are there similar messages and or misconceptions or myths that need to be addressed when it comes to learning differences.
| 38:01.45 George Perry Um | So yeah | absolutely the messages that we are constantly talking about are the fact that it's really important to identify difficulties with literacy or numeracy early because the earlier intervention can be provided the better. Um | we're also talking about the benefits of explicit and systematic Instruction. So for for literacy we're looking for Explicit systematic Synthetic Phonics Instruction. Um | and the importance of that in ensuring that all students are taught to read and spell and to write and that students who. Those difficulties are picked up nice and early and we're also frequently talking about the importance of ensuring that intervention for literacy and numeracy difficulties provide to students of all ages.
| 38:48.74 louisekuchel Right? Okay | that's very concise and very clear. Thank you I Thought there might be more I mean I Just what? Ah ah.
| 38:54.19 George Perry My pleasure. Ah | there's there's I could talk for hours and hours about just the difficulties with specific. You know this difficulties that students with specific learning defectives have but I think um | those are some of the key messages and the key difficulties that we see. |
| 39:04.69 louisekuchel Um | yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 39:10.19 louisekuchel Right? Yes | Well very good. Thank you for explaining that and I wanted to without you know we talk a lot of deficits and a lot of difficulties and challenges and things that are hard. But. Ah | there are also some strengths that come with being neurodivergent in this way. Um | that you know you know that you see in children with learning difficulties and um | you know where to where should we focus these these strengths in life is this any learnings that you've got there.
| 39:41.81 George Perry Look I I think I personally um | stay away a little bit from looking at the specific strengths that might come with Dyslexia or the other specific learning difficulties because the reality that the lived experience of many of the people in our community is that it is. They don't see it as a strength.
| 39:59.28 louisekuchel Rat. | | | | | | |
| 40:01.70 George Perry Um | they see it as a challenge. Um | but saying that just because those students or those young adults have those challenges doesn't mean they don't have many other strengths. Um and that's 1 of the things that will come up often is is the ability to you know is the.. The fact that you know as families as parents supporting young students who are finding 1 area of their learning may be hard at the Moment. Um is to focus on their strengths to focus on those other things that they do really well and to give them that space to feel successful and to feel really um to feel really you know. Yeah | to feel really successful in something is really Important. Um I think I think you know personally I would say that having Dyslexia and Dysgraphia has taught me a lot of perseverance which I would consider as a strength now. Um | but you know running out of classroom in year 8. |
| 40:39.56 louisekuchel Um. | | | | | | |
| 40:48.67 louisekuchel I Thought you might say that mm. | | | |
| 40:57.17 George Perry Because the spelling test was just really too hard for me. Um | didn't feel like a strength at the time. So um | you know | saying that just because you have Dyslexia dysgraphia or dyscalculia my message would be please know that interventions exist.
| 41:00.94 louisekuchel Um. | | | | | | |
| 41:14.79 George Perry Please know that support can be given that that you can improve your skills Even if it takes you longer than you'd like um and there is a big community of people who are keen to support you if you are a young person finding those challenges. There's those conditions of those just difficult is difficult.
| 41:29.80 louisekuchel Um | we often hear about famous people as well. Don't we you know Jamie oliver and richard branson and all those people they're all dyslexic I but I understand you know you hear rumors I don't know I think they are aren't they yeah.
| 41:33.49 George Perry Eat. Absolutely. | | | | | |
| 41:41.27 George Perry Yep | No no | no | no | there's a huge. There's a huge number of people in a range in the huge range of different professions that have a specific learning disorder and I suppose that's the thing just because you find reading hard just because numbers don't work as well for you as they do for your siblings or peers.
| 41:46.56 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | |
| 41:57.72 George Perry Doesn't mean that you can't be successful in the things that you choose to do. It's a difficulty but it's a specific difficulty and there's lots of lots of opportunities for you to both improve that area but also to focus on your strengths and interests as well.
| 42:06.20 louisekuchel Um. Yeah | absolutely yeah | and look to those people as role models. That's great. Um | and just before we finish can you tell us now a little bit more about spelled and well first walking tell us what it stands for and the service that the that. The the organization offers the community.
| 42:31.72 George Perry Sure what' begin with spelled stands for specific sp Ld learning difficultyies. So it's ah it's a kind of an acronym. Um I know yep | it's a little bit of an unusual. Um. | | | | |
| 42:40.67 louisekuchel Oh oh okay I always wondered that okay. | | |
| 42:47.28 George Perry Name for an organization that supports people who have literacy difficulties but nonetheless it's what we've got and we've been. We've had that name for over 50 years so I think we're sticking to it. Um | and there's many spelled or sped organizations in australia and around the world as well. So it is a commonly known name. Um.
| 42:53.48 louisekuchel Yes | yes. | | | | | | | |
| 43:03.86 louisekuchel Um. | | | | | | |
| 43:06.42 George Perry So All the spells are a little bit different but for spelled New South Wales We have a range of support for parents and that support includes our free parent info line so parents can contact us. We'll ring you or email you back and provide you with information or advice or a referral to a specialist. Tutor. Um | we have a we run a series of parent webinars that we run the same ones every term so feel free to come and have a look at our website. Um | if you want to access more information about learning difficulties in a webinar format O spelled the Australian parent. Organization for um | all the spells has produced an understanding learning difficulties guide which is a written guide with lots of information for parents. There's a teacher version and a parent version but the parent version is available and it's on uld for parents. Com which I'm sure Lou can put in the the notes if anyone needs to get that Link. It's a great.. It's a really great place if you want to start reading a little bit more about signs and supports and other things If you're worried about your child's literacy or numeracy. Um | and then so. | | | |
| 44:05.64 louisekuchel Yep. | | | | | | |
| 44:17.79 George Perry Speld Also offers diagnostic assessments of specific learning disorders. So that's our parent support and then for teachers and schools. We do a lot of teacher education both on evidence-based literacy and numerous instruction and also in understanding how best to support students who have specific learning disorders.
| 44:21.10 louisekuchel Fantastic. | | | | | |
| 44:37.35 George Perry Also sell um readers | decodable readers phonx-based readers into school and are available for schools to provide consultation and support if they want to make some changes in how they support their students. We're a busy passionate team.
| 44:49.63 louisekuchel Geez That's a lot isn't it. Yeah | yeah | that's really fantastic and you're well known you know | um I knew about you Well before I got into any of this. So Ah I knew about spelled it's it's got a good brand and um and ah. Pretty good clear understanding of what it's about which is great. Thank you for providing them. Oh you are a charity right? Yeah I wondered about that. Okay | okay | well. | | | |
| 45:08.78 George Perry Yeah | Yeahp and we're I I think I don't know if I mentioned we're a charity so we're an not for profit. Yeah yeah.
| 45:23.54 louisekuchel Thank you! That's a really good um outline and I'll obviously go back and find out what all the links are so that I can link all of that in for for parents. Um | finally very finally do you How I ask this of a lot of guests especially people like you who are experts in a certain area and ah.
| 45:28.50 George Perry Sure. | | | | | | |
| 45:41.79 louisekuchel People listening Sometimes I think I know when I listen to podcasts you want you? sometimes think um oh I Wonder what books they would send me to or what other resources or whatever so you know do you have any mentors in the field or are there books and resources or I guess audio books as well.
| 45:59.53 George Perry So do I. | | | | | |
| 46:00.18 louisekuchel Ah | love audiobooks um that you would you know share with listeners where they can find more information out or can you also tell us of good Facebook groups or support groups or anything like that. Yes.
| 46:11.80 George Perry Yes | there is so many. So um | let's think so so 1 audio book that I was 1 of the first audio books of this space that I listened to that is also a bookbook as well. Um | was prouss in the squid by Marianne wolff who is an american academic which is just. A lovely story about the reading brain and is quite a nice listen as a podcast as ah as an audio book. Um | that's 1 I recommend there's a lot There's a lot of books in this space. Um | you can look at standard house as oh my goodness apology status has leer gain and.
| 46:35.30 louisekuchel Um | cool. Yeah. | | | | | | |
| 46:44.40 louisekuchel And so up. | | | | | |
| 46:48.30 George Perry Books but they are quite um | challenging reads and so potentially better suited to a professional audience than a parents' audience but prasen's goods a lovely read? Um | ah 1 great place that I always recommend both families and teachers go is emily hanford's podcast.
| 46:55.59 louisekuchel Okay. | | | | | | |
| 47:06.20 George Perry There's a series of podcasts that started off with 1 called hard words. Um | which is really um | a fabulous insight into education literacy instruction students who have difficulties. With reading and other literacy skills. So um | highly recommend that group of podcasts. Um in terms of Facebook groups. There's a lot dyslexia support australia is a really is a very very large group and is a very um evidence-based group and there's also.
| 47:23.84 louisekuchel Excellent. | | | | | |
| 47:38.47 George Perry Um | 1 in Queensland and in new south wales and in Victoria that are of similar names. So the victorian new south wales and queensland are smaller groups slightly less active. But although the victorian group is very active. Um. Ah | really great places for parents to go for support There are many teachers in those groups as well. If you're a teacher wanting to learn more about um | reading and literacy instruction I would look for think forward educators as well as what the spells offer as well as. Reading sciences in Schools Facebook group um there's a huge community of people that are keen to support teachers and parents in this space. So um | do get in touch with your local spelled or 1 of those Facebook groups if you're keen.
| 48:23.94 louisekuchel And that will help guide you to to those and I will have to get them all from you later and add them into the show notes. So people know where to go and I heard you mention their evidence based um I know I did ask you about myths you skirted over it.
| 48:28.22 George Perry Yeah yep | will email. | | | | | | |
| 48:37.85 George Perry Ah | yeah | did I Ownthologies sorry for that. Ah well I think I suppose it's less of a myth these days the way I perceive it as more as there is a very there's very clear evidence that there is that how we best learn to read and that is. Tells us that students. Um | really benefit from instruction around phonics and there's also great evidence about how students learn to learn | best learn to learn and that involves explicit instruction and frequent opportunities for practice. Um | and so that leads us to an understanding of the fact that actually. Um | the best way that students can become literate is by participating in what we would call Systematic Synthetic phonics instruction in their early years and that as the basis for both classroom instruction and intervention.
| 49:29.29 louisekuchel So things like and I know you're not going to say anything you can't say here but things like the purple glasses or the colored glasses and the tracking and the other funny things you hear about? Yeah | do you want to talk about those I've done. | | | |
| 49:41.39 George Perry Yes | so yeah | no | I'm very happy to talk about those? Um | they come out from they come from an understanding that reading is to do with how your eyes work and obviously you need to be able to see to read printed words on a page.
| 49:49.13 louisekuchel Okay | good. Um | Oo who. | | | | | | |
| 49:59.77 George Perry Um | obviously the um vision impaired and blind Community have you know | different approaches to reading. But if we're talking about the community that reads printed words on the page we need to be able to see to read those words but once we can see those words. Difficulties with reading aren't about how your eyes work. They're about how your brain processes the language and how your brain processes the sounds in words and the meaningful meaningful parts of words and so we know that um.
| 50:25.35 louisekuchel Who. | | | | | | |
| 50:30.64 George Perry Vision interventions or or eye exercises or color paper or color lenses are not the things that are going to so teach a student that has difficulty with reading to become a reader what you need is an intervention that focuses on teaching them those reading skills.
| 50:45.57 louisekuchel Okay | thank you very much for speaking to that because I know there are a lot of funny woohoo things around for everything.
| 50:49.29 George Perry No | that's fine. Yeah | and it's very important for families to make sure that the the interventions they're taking part in are evidence based um and.
| 51:01.90 louisekuchel Yes. | | | | | | |
| 51:04.20 George Perry You know we would encourage them to check in with either an evidence-based peer support group or with your local spelled or have a look at that understanding learning difficulties guide because we don't want to waste the time of their students the time and the money of your your your time and money and.
| 51:15.12 louisekuchel Um | and money. Potentially. | | | | | |
| 51:22.40 George Perry Your your child's or students' time in spending time on intervention. That's not going to help them. It's going to first of all mean it takes longer to get to an evidence-based intervention but it's also going to frustrate them more and um. Give them potentially a greater negative self-concept which is you know 1 of the risks that we run of um | having the you know the mental health consequences of not becoming not developing those literacy and numeracy skills can be significant and so we want to make sure as soon as we start to notice a different difficulty.
| 51:45.42 louisekuchel Exactly. | | | | | |
| 51:51.39 louisekuchel Um | yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 51:57.10 George Perry Um | we look at you know evidence-based ways to support our kids. Absolutely no | it is. | | | | | | |
| 52:01.62 louisekuchel I'm so glad we made sure we covered that off because I've got a feeling that's a really important thing. Thank you so much. That's that's fantastic. Is there anything else that you can think of before I sign us off from our chat. Um that you want to say.
| 52:15.49 George Perry Ah | no I think I think we've covered a lot of ground this afternoon. Um I would just I think I've said it a number of times were poor. Um | hopefully people have found that helpful this afternoon and given them a bit more information but if they need more support or more information whether they're at. Teen or an adult dealing with learning difficulties a parent a teacher anyone? Um | there is a big community of people that are keen to support them so please do reach out.
| 52:43.20 louisekuchel Excellent. That's so good to know I'm very reassured by that. Thank you so much George Okay | well then why don't I sign us off. Thank you so much for being on the Square Peg round Hole Podcast george.
| 52:48.65 George Perry My pleasure. | | | | | |
| 52:55.90 George Perry Thanks so much Lou Lovely being here. | | |
| 52:59.59 louisekuchel Okay | signing is off Bye everyone. | | | | | |