Another very special episode. This time, Lou chats to Australia's national treasure, Maggie Dent! Lou learns that Maggie's key early intuitions led her to a deep understanding for our neurodivergent youth, their strengths, challenges and their need for our support and understanding, especially when they are at school. Maggie shares some very moving and heartfelt stories of her experiences as a teacher and parent over the years and the connections she's been able to form with young neurodivergent people that she has met along her own journey of acceptance and care for our community. Lou challenges Maggie to help her understand the exasperation of yet another setback in the wake of Minister Alan Tudge's recent speech with its "behaviourist overtones". Maggie explains that she has been trying to convince Australia's politicians about what's needed for years and the two lament that it feels like a mammoth task at times. It's a wonderful discussion between two mums who deeply care and want to help neurodivergent youth.
Maggie is host of super successful ABC podcast, Parental as Anything: https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/parental-as-anything-with-maggie-dent/episodes/
PLEASE SUBSCRIBE, RATE AND REVIEW!
Please join the Square Peg Round Whole podcast Facebook private group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/536225331089755
Please like the Facebook PUBLIC page: https://www.facebook.com/Square-Peg-Round-Whole-Public-PAGE-108284341497676
Patreon membership: Patreon members receive early release of episodes and assistance with advocacy efforts. If you would like to support me to pay for this podcast production and help me realise my dream to work more in this field, please feel free to become a patreon member: https://www.patreon.com/squarepegroundwhole
Instagram: @squarepegroundwholepodcast
Twitter: @PegWhole
Website: www.squarepegroundwhole.com.au
Resources mentioned in this episode:
Dr Mona Delahooke's book, Beyond Behaviours: https://www.booktopia.com.au/beyond-behaviours-mona-delahooke/book/9781529300468.html?source=pla&gclid=Cj0KCQjw_fiLBhDOARIsAF4khR0Ylo1Tgmctzci89QYTzUPtriPBMv3pdrXnxUCmqCcKoN1MVV8AaZwaAq2hEALw_wcB
Dr Stuart Shanker's book Self-Reg: https://www.booktopia.com.au/self-reg-dr-stuart-shanker/book/9780143110415.html
Maggie's Blog: "Are your problem Students bad or just Struggling?"
https://www.maggiedent.com/blog/problem-students-bad-just-struggling/
Minister Alan Tudge's speech from 22nd October, 2021:
https://ministers.dese.gov.au/tudge/roaring-back-my-priorities-schools-students-return-classrooms
Lisa Feldman-Barrett's book, How Emotions are Made:
https://lisafeldmanbarrett.com/books/how-emotions-are-made/
Another very special episode. This time, Lou chats to Australia's national treasure, Maggie Dent! Lou learns that Maggie's key early intuitions led her to a deep understanding for our neurodivergent youth, their strengths, challenges and their need for our support and understanding, especially when they are at school. Maggie shares some very moving and heartfelt stories of her experiences as a teacher and parent over the years and the connections she's been able to form with young neurodivergent people that she has met along her own journey of acceptance and care for our community. Lou challenges Maggie to help her understand the exasperation of yet another setback in the wake of Minister Alan Tudge's recent speech with its "behaviourist overtones". Maggie explains that she has been trying to convince Australia's politicians about what's needed for years and the two lament that it feels like a mammoth task at times. It's a wonderful discussion between two mums who deeply care and want to help neurodivergent youth.
Maggie is host of super successful ABC podcast, Parental as Anything: https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/parental-as-anything-with-maggie-dent/episodes/
PLEASE SUBSCRIBE, RATE AND REVIEW!
Please join the Square Peg Round Whole podcast Facebook private group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/536225331089755
Please like the Facebook PUBLIC page: https://www.facebook.com/Square-Peg-Round-Whole-Public-PAGE-108284341497676
Patreon membership: Patreon members receive early release of episodes and assistance with advocacy efforts. If you would like to support me to pay for this podcast production and help me realise my dream to work more in this field, please feel free to become a patreon member: https://www.patreon.com/squarepegroundwhole
Instagram: @squarepegroundwholepodcast
Twitter: @PegWhole
Website: www.squarepegroundwhole.com.au
Resources mentioned in this episode:
Dr Mona Delahooke's book, Beyond Behaviours: https://www.booktopia.com.au/beyond-behaviours-mona-delahooke/book/9781529300468.html?source=pla&gclid=Cj0KCQjw_fiLBhDOARIsAF4khR0Ylo1Tgmctzci89QYTzUPtriPBMv3pdrXnxUCmqCcKoN1MVV8AaZwaAq2hEALw_wcB
Dr Stuart Shanker's book Self-Reg: https://www.booktopia.com.au/self-reg-dr-stuart-shanker/book/9780143110415.html
Maggie's Blog: "Are your problem Students bad or just Struggling?"
https://www.maggiedent.com/blog/problem-students-bad-just-struggling/
Minister Alan Tudge's speech from 22nd October, 2021:
https://ministers.dese.gov.au/tudge/roaring-back-my-priorities-schools-students-return-classrooms
Lisa Feldman-Barrett's book, How Emotions are Made:
https://lisafeldmanbarrett.com/books/how-emotions-are-made/
| Timestamp Speaker Transcript | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 00:00.00 louisekuchel You Zencaster before it tends to be whip bit weird. Okay | we're on. We're on and you can hear me still. It's all going Well Okay | let's start welcome to Square Pe Ground Hole Maggie dent. | | | | | | | | | |
| 00:16.30 maggie dent How are you? thank you for inviting me to chat. | | | | | | | | | | |
| 00:19.47 louisekuchel Oh you're very welcome. Thank you so much for being here to chat to us. It's super exciting I know the community are very very keen to hear what we've got to discuss today and so Maggie just before we get going I just wanted to sort of frame it up. Um I have noticed that. You have an active interest in the neurodivergent youth and I just wanted to start by thanking you so much and just to let you know how much that means to us that we can see that you can see our kids and you can see what's going on. It's very important to us and it makes us feel supported. And um | we're really happy about it. Thank you? Um | and as you know such a need for advocacy as our community do suffer regular setbacks and it makes us feel alone and disheartened and as you and I discussed last week it's disturbing to see that despite the myriad of evidence that we know exists out there for a compassionate approach towards neurodivergent youth. Our political leaders are not listening. They're not hearing what they need to hear. Um | so that's what we're here to discuss today. Let's unpack this together. Um | I'm very very keen to hear your thoughts and see if we can also come up with some solutions to offer in this process. So I'll start with the first question if that's okay with you as you know Maggie podcast was created following years of parent advocacy.
| 01:46.94 maggie dent Yep. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 01:53.74 louisekuchel Supporting neurodiergent children across different settings. I know you have taken a keen interest in this cohort and have helped parents to embrace their neurodiergent and support them to access education Please can you tell us a little more about your thoughts on the strengths. And the challenges of neurodivergent build 1.
| 02:11.40 maggie dent Look um I am really passionate about all kids and I know there's lots of parenting educators out there but kind of those who don't know I've raised four sons and so um and I've also been a high school teacher for 16 years and um I kind of as a child myself. I struggled I was the fifth of 6 and um had a really difficult relationship with my mum and I was a very um rooster girl who spoke her mind. Um | so I was often a square peg in a round hole too. Um | and when I when I stepped into the classroom. Um. | | | | | | | | | |
| 02:44.30 louisekuchel Who. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 02:49.63 maggie dent Because I spent so much time with my dad and my younger brother I kind of got the boys and that's why I've written you know | 2 books that are now bests sellers because um | sometimes um | you know their behavior is the thing that people start labeling something wrong with them and therefore they must have in adh t. | |
| 03:03.69 louisekuchel Who. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 03:08.83 maggie dent Which I kept I kept you know thinking in on a minute all right? So in my classrooms and this is so interesting because it's only now really with the research we've got and the neuroscience we've got that shows that what I did intuitively and I think it was because I was looking out for them. Because I knew they weren't fitting into kind I knew they were the kids getting yelled at and stuck outside classrooms and getting sent to the office and I kind of wanted to bat for them and so um | in my mind. The first thing I wanted to do was connect with them and get to know them and I was a bit crazy I still am I'm a crazy nanny now. | | |
| 03:33.75 louisekuchel Who. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 03:45.43 maggie dent I Had a terrible terrible sense of humor. Um | but I often was able to create an environment where everyone felt safe and that hello I didn't care what gender you were what color you were whether you were Neuro divergent or not which wasn't even a term then we just called them quiten. It's I think it's so long ago It's for.
| 03:54.86 louisekuchel Ooh. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 03:59.75 louisekuchel O oo. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 04:05.16 maggie dent Since I slept in classroom and when I recognize that if I develop that relationship. We relational safety which is our core need as a human their behavior was always something that was coming from a different place and that's why I love the work of Dr. Mona delahoe and they're also Dr. Stuart shanka who talks about those. I have domains that can flood our kids if you sort out the biggest 1 which says you know is this person got my back am I safe here and is this room going to be safe for me because I can't take a learning risk if I don't feel safe so I kind of.
| 04:37.66 louisekuchel Oh. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 04:41.80 maggie dent I am possibly quite boylike and I have had a couple of um | professional colleagues who 1 who has adhd and autism who've told me I've got some serious red flags. Um I can still and I thought it was just my brain needs the movement to remember things and so when.
| 04:53.98 louisekuchel M. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 04:59.86 maggie dent When I found there were kids that were restless particularly the boys walking around my classroom I decided rather than bust them. Why didn't I create brain brakes because I like to move and I thought okay so we'll do that So intuitively without even having any professional and we would get up and do crazy brain breaks.
| 05:13.48 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 05:19.42 maggie dent And then I discovered something else too and that was that um I come from a farm environment and too much background noise really isn't good for me it triggers my it triggers anxiety or I feel a bit noisier. So um I had to make sure that the classroom at times. Could be fun and awesome | but there need to be times when it needed to be a little quieter so I used a silent sound signal and I started to bring in um | crazy mindfulness stuff which is so funny because um I would do it after lunch mostly. And it was a lay on the floor. Let's go to the Beach. It wasn't anything sophisticated because this is back in you know well before the word mindfulness and when I wrote saving our children from our chaotic world teaching children the magic of silence and stillness um psychologists had no research that supported.
| 05:57.58 louisekuchel Um | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 06:12.63 maggie dent It and I thought oh they're going to call me a loopie. Um | and what was interesting is the boys were the first people to turn up in the class and probably the neurodivergent boys highy boys with the first because for once they had an opportunity to lay on the floor and have a rest and someone was protecting them.
| 06:20.40 louisekuchel Who. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 06:30.27 louisekuchel Who. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 06:31.79 maggie dent Remember boys are all snap and hi and you got a duck and weave and well in that room. There was this space that no 1 ne's going to let that happen and I really kind of love that little quiet bit and then the feedback started coming from parents saying what are you doing because there's nowhere near as much fighting and.
| 06:37.17 louisekuchel Safety. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 06:49.36 maggie dent Going to sleep easier and I started to see that all children needed to have some of this. It wasn't just the kids with high energy who were always getting growed at and so there was 1 other thing I did to lou quite early I I remember I realized that kind of what university had taught me was bloody useless. Sorry seriouslyically connect with you know a class full of kids who are all different and and so you know we're supposed to discipline if you turned up without your stuff you know and I just said 1 day you know what? I forget stuff sometimes.
| 07:08.42 louisekuchel But we've heard this before. Don't worry. | | | | | | | | | | |
| 07:20.39 louisekuchel When. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 07:26.26 maggie dent So if you come to any of my classes and you you haven't got your staff. You haven't got your you know your buyers and your papers your pencils I've got spare stuff right near the back of the room so you can discretely come in and pick up what you need and just get on with your work and um oh my goodness you know the message is quite often at the end of the year
| 07:36.74 louisekuchel M. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 07:44.38 maggie dent Because there are kids who sometimes you know sleep out in a park bench who are living in with domestic violence. So therefore the trauma influence kids you know are often the ones who can struggle to remember things not just Neuro divergent kids whose you know prefrontal can be a bit tricky.
| 07:47.24 louisekuchel Yeah. Um. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 07:59.27 louisekuchel Um. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 08:01.33 maggie dent And then I started putting up little reminders in the classroom with you know | funny little posters around that tomorrow is this day and I'd say things like remember you've got to bring that live your text I need it on Thursday and then I'd go around and quite often and I say this with great affection because you're probably not supposed to touch kids nowadays and give the little boys it. Who'd usually forget punch in the arm and say what's what's tomorrow What do you have to bring yep and do you want to put you want to write that on your hand. So what I was accidentally doing wasn't I Lou was helping them create systems so they could succeed instead of always failing and feeling awful which triggers big Ugly feelings.
| 08:22.16 louisekuchel Um. Um | yes | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 08:38.65 maggie dent Which meltdown in our classroom so it was interesting that because I was kind of the square pegger in a way. Um that I and I just thought everyone was doing it. God I thought everyone was doing it. No now now it is.
| 08:47.32 louisekuchel But this is there's big words for all of this that describe what you're saying co-regulation and and all of this kind of thing. | | | |
| 08:56.62 maggie dent I know but it it wasn't then you're talking nineteen seventy seven and seventy eight and then I was so fond because I didn't have behavior problems I had parents saying my son comes to school because of your english class. Um.
| 08:59.39 louisekuchel Um | yeah | wow. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 09:08.75 louisekuchel Who. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 09:11.68 maggie dent The first time he's picked up a book. He doesn't feel like the failure he did before um and I used to end up in tears because I didn't think I was doing a lot but in their world being seen heard and helped without judgment without being shamed.
| 09:27.91 louisekuchel Um | um | that's just amazing and I mean what I'm hearing from you. There is that intuition has been a major factor in your journey along this road which I find just fascinating because that is actually no that.
| 09:30.43 maggie dent Um I didn't realize quite how big it was low. Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | |
| 09:47.85 louisekuchel Well | it's it's it'd be fascinating on face value. But that actually is my own experience and my whole family's experience I hear it over and over again from from families before we knew anything that was going on with our boys we were and my husband is a classic of this. We actually did a whole episode on the podcast about this. He just instinctively would say can we just hug him and can we just sit with him and I I instinctively when he was having meltdowns with just sit and just say nothing and just be with him and no 1 was telling us really how to do a lot of these things we just worked out that that was what he needed so we were co-regulating.
| 10:22.39 maggie dent That is what that is what attunement is I keep saying to people no book has ever been written about your child. Your child is a 1 ne-off unique miracle and they will have strengths and they will have challenges.
| 10:25.64 louisekuchel And all those 3 Yes | yes. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 10:36.18 louisekuchel Yeah | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 10:40.64 maggie dent Your job is to work out how you support them shine and grow and I think that's that um | that place within us when we go oh that didn't work and um | there's not 1 size fits all isn and it's not 1 solution but when you start to recognize. | | | | | | | |
| 10:50.69 louisekuchel M. No | No yep. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 10:58.48 maggie dent You know that there are so many of those influences and I'm um I started to sort of as a bit of a jigsaw puzzle. How do you find the pieces up the right way and that um you know there are there's all these little different tendencies and my number 3 1 and my whoops he 3 as and you know.
| 11:05.92 louisekuchel Um. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 11:17.61 maggie dent Some of us had um I thought I'd worked out how to be a really good mom because my second was it was so much easier than my first but natural fact it was the temperament of the second 1 he was just going to yeah and I kept thinking.
| 11:23.38 louisekuchel Um | yes because I had it the other way around so it can't just but naturally be the order. | | | | | | | |
| 11:35.99 maggie dent Oh my golly look how judged you are when you have these kids and I know there were tones I turned up with the four dent boys with 2 roosters and 2 lovely well-behaved they go oh the dent boys are here. Um | but I worked out and it's all about you know regulation if I meet the 5 domains. | | | | | | | | |
| 11:36.83 louisekuchel Um. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 11:49.66 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 11:52.96 maggie dent So what I'd do is run them ragged for a you know good forty five minutes somewhere before we got in the car give them a good quality sandwich to give them enough. You know omph to give them the the sugars in a good space I'd get a good twenty minutes of well-behaved boys and then we often left because they wanted to move.
| 12:04.76 louisekuchel Who. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 12:10.71 louisekuchel Um | yeah | and again your instinct say they needed to move and run. Yeah yeah. | | | | | | | | |
| 12:11.45 maggie dent Yeah | they wanted to run. Um and I recognize yeah and I'm not going to make them not be able to respond to what their little mind and I think we've got you know I keep saying there's ah | there's a higher self and inner compass in every one of us. And every 1 of our children and that's actually where I went into counseling full time I did it very differently. Um I helped children and teens and adults find what their inner voice was trying to tell them because the head that ego voice look how it is by the time you're a teen.
| 12:39.15 louisekuchel M. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 12:46.87 maggie dent If you've been shamed and you know and that's exactly what happens to our neurodiergent kids bad naughty. You need to you know | stop behaving in that way and they'll get growled out. They get eyeballed and get shoved and I'm thinking by the time that inner voice surfaces. It's. | |
| 12:47.42 louisekuchel Um. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 12:55.41 louisekuchel Um | yeah | but. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 13:05.40 maggie dent going to be more It's going to be negative it's negative for lots of us but them it's and that was why I wanted them to hear so I'll give you an example I was working with ah um | a little boy he was in year seven and transitioning was a little bit tricky because it was a lamb and probably um. | | | | | |
| 13:07.10 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 13:22.84 maggie dent He had been diagnosed with Autism and I was thinking it was more the he also had the passive kind of quiet adh D then different times and I said no when it all gets too much in your school. Um | where would you like to run and hide until someone's safe can come and get you because. | | | | | | | |
| 13:28.91 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 13:41.37 maggie dent That is a really scary place and he said I know somewhere that I could be safe and he said they've got these mats in the gym and I'll run into that room and squeeze in between the mats anyway | six months later um I get this frantic phone call from the mum. And the schools. The schools told them to ring me um that there was a different bus driver and on at the bus and a different teacher on a Friday so here he is quite fatigued. 2 unpredictable people have turned into his world somebody shouted at him to get in line and that was it.
| 14:16.52 louisekuchel Um | um | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 14:19.16 maggie dent Flood was massive and he disappeared right back into the school and nobody could find him and I said mom have you forgotten we did write it down. Mummy should I said remember the Matt him and there he was and I thought to myself then look how we can contribute.
| 14:32.23 louisekuchel That's where he is. | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 14:37.80 louisekuchel Um | yeah | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 14:38.67 maggie dent When we collectively work together for what happens if it does get to that state where is the safe person or the safe place in a school environment. Um | and I Yeah | so like I said there was a ah we But when you did that work with them sometimes um | helping them find that place. They'd sit up and go.. It's so quiet in there Maggie because you know that you know quite often. The neurodivergent brain has got all those stimuli coming in the reticular activator like thousands of them and if you can get them into that state of complete relaxation.
| 15:02.80 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 15:08.24 louisekuchel Absolutely. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 15:15.44 maggie dent Um | whatever way works for them. They can't believe it's and also when you ask them a question from there. The answers are so clear and and so again | but every child we've got to help them find. | | | | | | | | | | |
| 15:23.17 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 15:28.65 maggie dent You know that voice inside them that can reassure them that they are absolutely okay | exactly as they are they deserve to be loved that they're you know they are different and we're all different that we celebrate their strings. Okay to be different. |
| 15:31.60 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 15:37.60 louisekuchel Yes | and it's good to be okay to be different. Yeah | you're speaking everything we know I Just wish we could get this through um ah well do you know what I had all these questions for you but you but you're actually you already.
| 15:55.44 maggie dent Ah | sorry. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 15:55.71 louisekuchel Like you're just answering them already. So um | we've covered quite a lot already. 1 thing I wanted to put to you though is sort of I guess moving more into this punitive area this area of discipline. What? you've been describing is intuitive understanding that these students are differently different. Disadvantaged or or already um and that you know they require certain adjustments that you've just discussed which are brilliant and we know they work depending as you say on the particular student and my son's been has experienced that. However | we've still got this horrendous figure. 75 percent of students who are suspended from school in Australia Well we know in New South Wales and it would be in other states as well have a disability so that basically means that its students that are being excluded and sent away are generally our kids the square pegs the ones that we've just been talking about. With that astounding statistic. How do you feel about that and what do you want parents and teachers and anyone who's listening to us right now to do in response to that.
| 17:05.41 maggie dent Ah | it just as prays for heart. Absolutely um and I'd like to know the statistic of those who are boys and that's why I have been a champion and but my latest book from boys to Menwitches for tweens and teens I dedicated it.
| 17:09.28 louisekuchel O. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 17:15.52 louisekuchel Um | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 17:24.48 maggie dent To the Matthews to the boys who slip through the cracks because you know they'll have a learning challenge or they neuro divergent or they've experienced trauma or they that we can't they're too hard. You know and I think um | okay so I am going to give some good news and that is that there are. | | | | | | | | | |
| 17:35.97 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 17:44.32 maggie dent Quite a few high schools now and I presume they're doing it in primary but it's just that a lot of my contacts as to high school who are doing trauma-informed professional learning so they're starting to recognize and I mean surely just about every Neuro divergent child has experienced it as a consequence of.
| 17:52.50 louisekuchel Um | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 18:02.95 maggie dent Being misunderstood when they were little or anything so remember | almost's not necessarily what happens to it's how you interpret that and so anytime you interpret it as a way of excluding you that there's something wrong with you that you're wrong rather than the behavior has come out in a way and we you know once again | we now know. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 18:03.61 louisekuchel Yeah | and yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 18:13.85 louisekuchel Um | yeah | yeah | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 18:21.67 maggie dent Once your amygdala is flooded then we all will go into that state. Um | it is the triggers around that. Um so there is that that space of good news now the reason I wrote and I sent you that article which was you know and how many years ago
| 18:33.67 louisekuchel Yes. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 18:37.56 maggie dent Um | where another minister of education said we're going to crack down. Um um | poor behavior with I Just got so cross because um | you know I have seen so many of those kids get suspended and expelled. Um | who weren't heard who weren't understood. Um | who was a cumulative effect of having a toxic teacher. Um | that isn't good for any child. Um | no support in that environment and 1 of the things that I know works well is when um | our square pegs know there's someone in the school. | | | |
| 18:56.53 louisekuchel Um | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 19:12.93 maggie dent Who genuinely gets them and cares for them I call it the lighthouse figure. So I became a lighthouse figure for kids who weren't even in my classes. Um | yeah | and they sometimes run up to you when you're on playground duty and just hang out and go in just because they're so relieved they just. | |
| 19:15.88 louisekuchel Um | yeah | yes | he knew this all the time we hear about people like you all the time and it's great. Yep. | | | | | |
| 19:32.76 maggie dent It's kind of there's safe on your forehead that we ah | we've got to start at university we've absolutely got to do you know and I hope Dr. Mona's book now is actually part of every single curriculum because the way she explains it so beautifully is that um | you know when it's coming from the bottom up. | | | | | | | | | | |
| 19:35.75 louisekuchel Yep. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 19:52.54 maggie dent In the brain there is no intentionality to be anything else except trying to cope and that flooding is is just intense and I think what the way she also explains that you know we now know that the interoception stuff and it's the stuff that I was exploring for that.
| 20:00.44 louisekuchel Um | yep. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 20:10.39 louisekuchel Yep. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 20:12.25 maggie dent Brain doesn't sit separate from our body. It is constantly not just you know I always thought of it as processing all the sensory information. Oh my goodness when you read you know?? Um Lisa Felman Barrett's book and stuff and get to understand that it is. Unbelievably complex that it's trying to predict how much energy it's going to need to keep the heart beating and the blood flowing and the the digestion working as well as enough to pay attention while I'm doing that and make sure that I can hold onto my weed till it's time to go as well as um | coping with. All these extra stimuli. So at the end of the day it really illuminates. Um | why it is so difficult for those children with those extra challenges and that there's this sense of having a platform a neural platform that we can influence and it is you know it has to start again.
| 20:50.15 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 21:00.62 louisekuchel M. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 21:05.62 maggie dent With a sense of having a relational safety I have to wear biologically wired and I get so gross when people say that kids with autism you know aren't connected and don't feel and don't kind of want to connect I have a boy and um | it's just a little story I'll tell you because this is probably 1 my early experience of 1 so little. | | | | | | | |
| 21:08.81 louisekuchel Boom. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 21:14.36 louisekuchel Ah | yeah. Who. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 21:25.39 maggie dent He's really good friends of ours and my son at my hubby would go over and because they worked together in hospitality and he came home and their little boy was probably just 2 and he said oh look I think he might be deaf and I said why do you say that and he said well he doesn't respond when he talk.
| 21:35.73 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 21:43.65 maggie dent Him and I said oh really | he I went over the next time and um I went into the playroom and sat on the floor and he came in and he sat you know like about 3 meters away and I had a ball and I rolled it towards him but I deliberately ignored looking at him and I just looked around the room.
| 21:58.94 louisekuchel M. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 22:03.42 maggie dent And I waited and that was and it was 3 minutes how many people wait more than three minutes with a 2 year old and the ball came back and I paused and I kind of smiled and then I rolled the ball back at him and it was another 3 minutes and the ball came back.
| 22:07.70 louisekuchel O. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 22:22.23 maggie dent And and when I rolled it. The third time it came back a little quicker and then I said um Jarvis mummy's going to go out and have something to eat with um mummy and daddy at the moment and and he said and this still makes me get goosey. He said more. And more was the first word he spoke and over time when I went in yeah and over time I'd go to their place and as he grew and he had little rituals. He would like to do so he grabbed my hand and had come maggie come and he'd go out.
| 22:43.35 louisekuchel Ever! Oh wow. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 22:57.45 louisekuchel A. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 23:00.18 maggie dent And he would get me to look at these flowers that were in a row and then he would get on a certain swing and I wasn't allowed to push him on that 1 and then I had to help him get up on the trampoline any time so it would take me fifteen minutes for me to go through our little ritual and then that's that was just so profound.
| 23:13.90 louisekuchel Yeah. What a connection? yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 23:19.65 maggie dent Now I know it. But what was beautiful because when they were doing the early kind of um work with him Although some of that now I question. Um we were in his book of pictures and every now and today he is now 18 I still get a text that said I love you maggie.
| 23:28.53 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 23:36.34 louisekuchel Oh. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 23:39.30 maggie dent And so I know that it is still that they hungry for human connection aren't they with people who such a big 1 is is why I did the 2 episodes in the podcast because I wasn't prepared to link season four without adhd and autism because.
| 23:41.40 louisekuchel Yeah I Absolutely that is such a misconception that non empathy thing that's awful. Yeah yeah | yes. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 23:58.30 maggie dent Not only have I learned a lot from these amazing women but it was that whole sense of it being a disability that was really not sitting well with me and that we weren't honoring their superpower. So um Jarvis had absolutely and a passion about stop lights and signs for a long time. So of course we used to always try and find them and.
| 24:04.26 louisekuchel The. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 24:18.15 maggie dent Whatever | um | and he has a fascinations of certain sort of music and another 1 of my friends' um son he can still give me every cricket result back to sort of nineteen sixty five without batting an eyelid he remembers and um I know and I think.
| 24:31.76 louisekuchel Um | if amazing isn't it. Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 24:38.50 maggie dent I Just like I said I just didn't feel comfortable and I felt that what we were doing in the world if we keep looking at our beautiful square peg through um | a deficit lens which I think we're doing to all children I Keep seeing parents go. | | | | | | | | |
| 24:47.28 louisekuchel Yes | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 24:52.88 maggie dent Yeah | no | they're not in the top readingeding group or they can't can and I keep going but what can they do? We need to focus that I believe we turn up with strengths and gifts and that if we just keep looking at where we need to work. We're missing this which has been.
| 24:56.19 louisekuchel Um | yeah | yeah. Yeah. An absolute gift and such an amazing experience to have a relationship and and for me | it's been learning from neurodivergent adults autistic adults that I've spoken to. | | | | | | |
| 25:10.40 maggie dent You know which has arrived with them. It is. | | | | | | | | | | |
| 25:21.67 maggie dent Listen. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 25:25.10 louisekuchel Um | they've really taught me way more than I ever could have imagined and I have an autistic child. So yeah | we really need to get into their world and and be their companion and friend and understand and stop do what you did again? Intuitively you just stopped didn't you and you just.
| 25:28.88 maggie dent Yes. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 25:41.81 maggie dent I did yeah yeah and I and it's interesting because another thing around what I noticed in high school is when they were um | dealing with a boy who was behaving not okay | they're often in their face. | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 25:44.60 louisekuchel Sat there and you were just with that boy and look at what happened. | | | | | | | | |
| 25:55.47 louisekuchel Who yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 25:59.12 maggie dent And they're raising their voice and they're expecting eye contact now I'm sorry but if you did that to me I would flip out and because I was shouted at quite a bit as a little girl and I find that if somebody raises their voice at me I can't hear a thing and I am like thinking you know so.
| 26:04.73 louisekuchel Yeah | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 26:12.27 louisekuchel Oh yeah | my son says this all the time. Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 26:18.53 maggie dent While I have this deep passion for boys who still get hit hurt and shamed a lot more than little girls because we think they're tough | you know then you put our square pegs and that can be girls as well as boys and um | how can they get to be understood if we don't advocate for them and I guess. | | | | | | | |
| 26:21.68 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 26:27.84 louisekuchel Um | of course. Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 26:36.36 maggie dent You know I'm I'm really quite anti how much money we waste on um Napalm I mean it's called nap land. But if we pause them if we pause them you know | but it's a statistically invalid test. | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 26:43.15 louisekuchel Um | sorry that took me a second ah does anyone like that. Ah yeah yeah yeah I know | | | | | | | | |
| 26:54.60 maggie dent Because it's not an even playing field Some schools start immediately. They start Kindy and others do give a through practice. It's not the same and I wish we'd use all that money at helping to identify early. Um | how we can better support our little ones as they transition into big school. | | | | | | | | |
| 27:10.75 louisekuchel Yes | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 27:13.40 maggie dent Need to bring out allied health professionals into our school environments. So they're more accessible because it's only the parents who have the money quite often can get their children and get the supports in place because um I mean in Western australia at the moment you can take 2 years to get to see a child psychiatrist.
| 27:19.95 louisekuchel Um | yeah | oh yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 27:30.42 louisekuchel I Know yep. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 27:32.32 maggie dent Or a pediatrician to have your child assessed who is really struggling and I'm thinking that's that's just not Okay | how do we get? yes. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 27:39.33 louisekuchel Oh it's an absolute plague. It's a real problem for all of us all the states I think Tasmania is also just as bad in terms of accessing support. Yeah | yeah | it's a real crisis. Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 27:47.70 maggie dent That necked my heart So sad. Um | and then of course there's no money money necessarily because if that lighthouse person is that child's education assistant who sees them every day's face lights up when they see them come in the door. Oh.
| 28:06.29 louisekuchel Yeah I know who those people are for my child but it's very hard to find those people totally agree with you. Yeah | 1 hundred percent mm. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 28:06.64 maggie dent Look at the difference we could make look at the difference. But yeah | so that yeah | we have so those gaps are going to take a lot of time and when we have um | ignorance. It is ignorance from the upper levels and I've been yelling and growling about this for a number of years I took a submission to the Um federal. Ah well I kept I kept in all my work.
| 28:30.24 louisekuchel Yes | I wanted to ask you about this tell us about this sorry. | | | | | | | | | | |
| 28:39.78 maggie dent Because I'm a voice not just for children I'm a voice for parents and educators and Allied Health professionals who have children at their heart I kept getting all these kind of messages about how things had changed and I thought what.
| 28:47.44 louisekuchel Yep. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 28:54.39 maggie dent So shortening of play time children sitting on Mats for long periods of time doing explicit instruction um denying children autonomous play in those environments not reading to them taking away painting eases and Sand pets and I kept going what are we doing So the more I looked into it and I asked.
| 28:58.12 louisekuchel Um. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 29:13.30 maggie dent And feedback. Well I got all this feedback and I decided we were stealing childhood off our children creating anxious children that are now you know actually being diagnosed with anxiety disorders and issues particularly our teens and I thought no this isn't This isn't okay so I collated at all.
| 29:22.36 louisekuchel Um | yes. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 29:32.13 maggie dent And I took um a printed copy of flew to Canberra and presented it to the then federal Minister um Christopher pyne and I I won't say anything about that other than um I didn't even get a response. Um and I called it. Yeah.
| 29:36.88 louisekuchel Yeah | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 29:46.29 louisekuchel I Remember you doing it and I remember you talking about this at the time so there was there was just nothing no engagement. | | |
| 29:51.81 maggie dent Nearly childhood in the name of education and so none none at all and so you've got the same thing going on where people informing the minister and sometimes then not even worked in education. So they've got no background in education.
| 29:58.20 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 30:06.47 louisekuchel Oh. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 30:08.85 maggie dent Ah | making decisions to please policy Makers or please I don't know who they please is. It's not edge teachers don't agree with it. So we've just done I've been supporting. Um | 1 of my granddaughters through remote learning now I'm an english teacher aren't lo. | | | | | | |
| 30:11.86 louisekuchel Um | yeah | um. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 30:24.34 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 30:26.31 maggie dent And um | you know I spent a lot of time I know all my bits around english and here she is. She's five and a half she hasn't finished the book where she's doing letter formations correctly yet and yet her expectation from her online learning.
| 30:35.60 louisekuchel Yeah | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 30:41.90 maggie dent Was to be able to write stories with the beginning in the middle and an end using adjectives. Um I I I was got smacked at that we have that expectation where as 5 year olds 30 odd years ago.
| 30:47.19 louisekuchel So yeah | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 30:58.84 maggie dent Those children were largely in play but they were on the mat doing stories and their educators were working and weaving language and sphonnics and so graphens and phonemes were things that my granddaughter has to know what they are and no joke 1 day. It was ah. Algorithms. She's five and a half okay she has an edge. She has 2 educated parents and mothers are speeches. So she's got a huge advantage. What about these children. What about our square p what about our indigenous kids. What about our kids with english as a second language this is 5.
| 31:18.77 louisekuchel Ah | far out. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 31:28.55 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 31:37.52 maggie dent Matter what you call it and I thought what are we doing? That's that's just that's just not helping to and guess what if you look at the other end. We've got the highest number of um people who struggle with literacy. You know we have not improved our educational outcomes by pushing it down. There is no evidence.
| 31:37.67 louisekuchel Yep | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 31:42.95 louisekuchel Um | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 31:55.63 maggie dent Anywhere in the world that this supports our children getting smarter because they're not a brain on a seat. They're not a source of Data. They're a whole child and that's why that social and emotional learning is extremely important because it helps with self-regulation which helps them concentrate stress brains don't learn well like it's.. It's not einstein's stuff is it louise and yet have to.
| 32:16.30 louisekuchel No absolutely Well | it's and again when you say it it doesn't sound like that at all | but that is my question. What is the fear behind this. What is actually going on and why are we hitting our heads on this brick wall. | | |
| 32:29.54 maggie dent Okay | yeah | all right? and this is this. | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 32:33.82 louisekuchel Constantly advocating you you fly to canberra no 1 talks to you? What have we got to do to get our our federal education minister Mr. Alan tudge who has just delivered this speech which is so divisive and so going backwards.
| 32:47.48 maggie dent almost word. almost word. for word it was the 1 I challenge in that article that the kids who are struggling and who are being disciplined I might not be bad. They may be struggling. It was almost the same thing like the same policy person must be writing the same speeches and.
| 32:54.60 louisekuchel Um | yeah | um | yes. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 33:05.10 maggie dent Is that our awareness has to be lifted and and I think we're heading in the right direction I did notice the other day. Dr Mona with her book. She's had a thousand reviews on amazon and things like that that means that's huge so what? we absolutely and we are starting. It is starting but the conversation again.
| 33:14.42 louisekuchel Um | yeah | yes. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 33:24.36 maggie dent Um | you know is is it's going to take time until it's actually part of future training. Um I know that Ots are all over it. They're all over interoception which and that processing of the brain to do all these things they're all over self-regulation they're all over you know sensory processing. They actually get it.
| 33:26.53 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 33:32.15 louisekuchel Um | yeah | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 33:41.66 louisekuchel Yes. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 33:43.67 maggie dent So um I you know what do we do? I I just think we have to keep being those voices and we have been advocating for our kids. Um | and I think um so it's it's we might need to look at the state bodies of education rather than the federal 1 | | | | | |
| 33:48.48 louisekuchel Okay | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 34:00.38 louisekuchel Well unfortunately Mr. Minister tudge was openly criticising the states and their efforts to reform the education system. So this is why we're here right now is I Just thought.
| 34:01.73 maggie dent Because they have really had the public. | | | | | | | | | | |
| 34:14.63 louisekuchel Ah | can't believe this. We just started to look like we were getting somewhere New South Wales have this new behaviour strategy where they're trying to reduce suspensions of children with disabilities. But. I Actually contacted that minister that's minister Sarah Mitcheright She contacted her office and said do you realize that the federal education minister is openly criticizing your work and they're just kind of like oh oh well oh.
| 34:36.59 maggie dent Yeah I know oli text. So the other thing I think is a concern and I don't know where it's kind of happened but at some point we we've chosen to see children and mothers as um | important parts of the economy. Rather than important parts of social beings living in Society. That's how they keep wording things we have to improve that so we get there so there's more people employed you hear the wording quite often. We're putting and you know even.
| 35:08.17 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 35:11.31 maggie dent Even some well-meaning programs say that if we do this and get more children in childcare We have more women working So the economy will be better now. Women want to work absolutely but we're not getting you to work to improve the economy I'm sorry at some point.
| 35:17.60 louisekuchel Yes | right? yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 35:25.72 louisekuchel Low. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 35:30.00 maggie dent There's a sacredness to having children and raising children that um | you know we never know their potential and who they could become and so sometimes our children also being shaped into thinking if you're not clever in class. Well. |
| 35:46.17 louisekuchel O. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 35:49.30 maggie dent On and enough and that's the same with award nights I've always had this issue about award nights that only winner ah red' high school of yeah now 1 are my boys very bright. Got a very high grade he a and all that sort of stuff very insightful. He missed a subject award by point zero zero one percent.
| 35:51.22 louisekuchel Ah | well Dr. Mona is yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 36:08.87 maggie dent He checked it 3 times and on the way home is why you know what mum I'm quite bright I'm quite capable I come from a good family and I know I'll do a right in life. But you know what there's a part of me leaving this graduation feeling like a failure and we have to really get the message across as.
| 36:20.83 louisekuchel Wow. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 36:27.82 maggie dent Parents because that's what the system keeps focusing and this is not being created by teachers teachers you know | ah ah | dreading and struggling and drowning under the accountability of excessive testing doesn't matter how many times you know my dad would say it doesn't matter how many times you weigh a pig.
| 36:33.48 louisekuchel Who. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 36:40.69 louisekuchel Oh yeah | no. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 36:46.67 maggie dent Over a month it's probably going to be about the same weight like what we're not doing is looking at the things that really facilitate learning that facilitate growth that you know and again we need people in the arts. We need people in the trades we need people who can um you know | save our environment. We need everyone. That's a little bit different. | | | | | | | | | |
| 36:47.91 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 37:06.11 maggie dent And I think that is the voice I think we're starting to get with the square pegs is if we can look at the multiple intelligence map and let them identify where their strengths are and if the school's not servicing the growth of that area. What to find a way that they can do it and I have a couple of um.
| 37:15.27 louisekuchel Um. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 37:21.10 louisekuchel M. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 37:25.52 maggie dent Absolute go get a girlfriend's sure. Go get us and the only way like and the only way that they are as successful is because they have Adhd Maybe they're brave.
| 37:28.70 louisekuchel Well can they come and join me please. | | | | | | | | | | |
| 37:36.71 louisekuchel Yeah | well | it's funny. You should say that? Yeah yeah | absolutely yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 37:43.59 maggie dent Ah up ah an online space. Um my eyes glaze over. It's all too big for me. It's too many things going on but they so we know that we've actually the digital world is actually almost um they so good at coding. They're so good at.
| 37:49.86 louisekuchel Um | yeah | oh there's so much potential for people. Yeah | yeah | yeah | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 37:58.81 maggie dent You know digital media. So we've got to be able to really make sure we're building on those trends and I want to throw 1 other thing in here to louise. Um I taught a very talented young girl many many years ago who ended up being a national cross-co champion. Um. And she ended up becoming a sports psychologist and her name's galen clues and Galen ended up becoming the world's second best Marathon runner and marathon no marathon. No | what do you call it triathlon. That's what she did she swam now she has written a book called wired to play. | | | | | |
| 38:25.96 louisekuchel All right yet all 3 yep. | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 38:33.86 maggie dent Because in all her work as a sports psychologist. She found an enormous number of them had Adhd and that being an elite sport athlete is how they conquered it and it was how they could do the focus. It was how they could day without ever being distracted.
| 38:48.60 louisekuchel Yep | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 38:53.12 maggie dent I think when she said something around Seventy to 75 so again you know that's something we need to factor in is we're making choices around. How do we help them manage that incredible mind that goes really fast. How can we give them the tools to be able to.
| 38:54.66 louisekuchel M. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 39:10.68 maggie dent Tame it when they need to or let it run wild when it needs to run wild. So like I said there's I Yeah | it's not. It's not going to happen really quickly. But I think just the fact that um. | | | | | | | | |
| 39:14.26 louisekuchel Absolutely. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 39:20.21 louisekuchel Ah | no. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 39:26.21 maggie dent You know we're getting those voices out and social media has given some great voices. You know your podcast and we've got a number of fabulous Neuro divergent sites. Um | and I think that's it. They're no longer silent. They're no longer feeling judged as much and they are sharing. | | | | | |
| 39:33.20 louisekuchel Yes | we do? yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 39:44.50 maggie dent Sharing real experience about what can work and and I think sometimes we've got to recognize that's a gift that we know that others have our back and are really committed to helping our kids. Um you know | but realize whatever potential they got but to to see themselves as valid. | | | | | | | | | |
| 39:49.32 louisekuchel Um | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 39:55.28 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 40:03.22 maggie dent Worthwhile and capable. | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 40:05.00 louisekuchel We have to channel that somehow I agree because as you just mentioned channeling it into something like elite sport or whatever where you can make your sort of hyperfocus work well is ah is a success equally though our prisons. Also have a huge number of people who have adh there who are neurodivergent who are from these disadvantaged communities Low literacy indigenous keep going? Yes so how can we stop that channel from Happening. We need to focus on the other 1 and.
| 40:26.17 maggie dent Yeah | with low leftricy Some of them have electricityracy that features that we. | | | | | | | | | |
| 40:41.69 louisekuchel I Think that if we go down the path of we're going to have orderly classrooms and we are going to continue to suspend students who don't conform and regulate the way we think that they should that that school to prison Pipeline is just going to keep growing as well.
| 40:56.52 maggie dent Yeah | and um | there is there is there are a little pockets of schools popping up that are independent that recognize that outdoor learning makes an enormous difference for some 8 schools. Um.
| 40:59.25 louisekuchel So yeah | yeah. Yes | yes | the nature schools I've been hearing a lot about them. Yes. | | | | | | | | |
| 41:15.72 maggie dent Them are called what are they called Democratic schools that means that um | parents work with teachers to create learning pathways that that allow children. So sometimes they might be in with the higher grades because that's actually where they they excel and then back with the other grades for the bits. They don't.
| 41:33.17 louisekuchel Yes | yes. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 41:35.20 maggie dent So in other words actually meeting and and collectively together. Ah planning. Um you know learning journeys that aren't 1 size fits all and um | that excites the heck out of me. Um I'm a massive nature play advocate and um and I have been for an. | | | | | | |
| 41:44.35 louisekuchel Yes. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 41:54.11 maggie dent Such a long time because I recognized there were times I would take my classrooms out you know and I I was in Co-ed schools because I just weren't in the right space you know and I'd say right? grab your baby book. Grab a bar. We're going to go outside and're going to lay under the trees and I want you to just.
| 42:03.50 louisekuchel Wu. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 42:09.10 maggie dent Really breathe in the beautiful fresh air for a while then I want you to write down some thoughts about being you now and sometimes I looked around it be going through. It's a bit weird. He really is a bit weird. Weird weird. Um | and then you know nature takes it a naturally restorative place. | | | | | | | | | |
| 42:10.20 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 42:28.39 maggie dent And it would take them into that state of connection to self and oh my goodness. The things that would come out of them that they were surprised with and sometimes in class they said Miss Can we go outside and do that again. That was so cool. But so cool. So.
| 42:40.24 louisekuchel Who. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 42:45.16 maggie dent Because it's so loud sometimes in that mind and the world's loud I think that is another thing that we need to look at how do we help? Um | all our kids find that quiet place within because you can build that pathway that neural pathway. And I had a number of my um adhd client you know students that I was seeing they had to use just 1 visualization that I have called beachless and it's 1 where you basically you know you get to a beach and there's no 1 there and it's beautiful and a beautiful day. The birds are singing and you know and you walk up. The sand in a certain direction and it basically says the further you walk the more everything drops away that causes you stress or pain or sadness the freer you feel the more real you feel and you keep walking and um then when the. Finally | they sit down toes into the sand they could lie back on the sand if they wanted to but if they could just see the waves come up slowly and roll over 1 after another and the more times they did it the stronger the wiring in the brain. Quicker they get there and so the brain can't tell the difference between real and imagined so when they could sense and that's what I helped them work out when can you sense that things are just starting to escalate for you. You know that Amygdala is just getting a bit too wound up about threat.
| 44:12.91 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 44:18.99 maggie dent Because it's not good at making those causes. It's trying to check if you're going to be safe and sometimes it's a bit too enthusiastic and you immediately | um | some of them actually kept a blue stone in their pocket and would reach in and get the stone because if you hold a stone and think of blue color coming up your arm you you turn your brain off.
| 44:36.21 louisekuchel Oh wow I've not heard that 1 before that's interesting. | | | | | | | | | |
| 44:38.32 maggie dent Your conscious might cannot do yeah bring it up into your heart and by that stage you've often turned it off and then they go to the beach or else if they could close their eyes and they go to that beach because they want the same beach every time they do it and you know there were times that you know that actually you could build this pathway. With practice. Um | and then sometimes they'd say you know what's on my beach and I said no no | you tell me I got an ice cream Stand. So every time I'm going I'm getting an ice cream I Think yes oh my gosh. What a great idea. | | |
| 44:58.12 louisekuchel Oo oo. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 45:09.94 louisekuchel Um | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 45:12.26 maggie dent So I found visualization was a way to build pathways towards distracting the the inner critic and the chatter but it also gave them a pathway into that place inside them where they were you know already wise and already you know good enough. Um.
| 45:22.96 louisekuchel Who. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 45:28.56 louisekuchel Calm And yeah in that Um | as um Dr Mona Della Hook says the green pathway she calls it doesn't she Yeah | they're ready for whatever to happen. Oh goodness me look. There's just sits. There's just so much. There's so much we could talk about for. | |
| 45:32.16 maggie dent And loved. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 45:36.22 maggie dent Yep | ye absolutely yep. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 45:48.41 louisekuchel Forever and your words of wisdom your intuition your deep understanding of our kids you know | actually surprised me even further today. Thank you so much. No I mean I knew you were interested but I didn't realize that you. | | | |
| 46:02.57 maggie dent Um | more. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 46:06.74 louisekuchel Had such a deep understanding of it and I just want to say it's so appreciated Maggie we need you we need you so badly um to help us. So ah | you know coming on this my little podcast hopefully having a. | | | | | | | | | | |
| 46:13.32 maggie dent Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 46:20.54 maggie dent Yeah | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 46:22.39 louisekuchel Big person like you on here will help me to get that message out as well and then we're achieving the same thing. Yeah yeah. | | |
| 46:25.75 maggie dent And I still I if those when I speak or like I said that there's always something in it that and I'm about you know I think it's because I'm a fit old and I've seen everything and I've seen children that.
| 46:43.19 louisekuchel You're not that much older than me sorry keep going. | | | | | | | | | |
| 46:45.67 maggie dent Um | I've seen children who everyone said would never amount to anything which was said to me a lot to um | finally um | find a place you know? and um so you know what it does take is. | | | | | | | |
| 46:50.65 louisekuchel Um | yeah. Um | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 47:01.81 maggie dent Somebody who you know we need the people who don't give up on us and if it's our parents. That's great and if it's our grandparents too. That's great. But if it's an educator who's in a system that doesn't always hold the light. They never forget that educator So I call on all of them out there make a connection.
| 47:03.45 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 47:20.54 maggie dent Work with a parent no matter whether they've had time to be assessed or not if they're struggling to manage themselves remember that that poor behavior is a sign that they can't hear that voice that says hey I'm okay take a breath. We're all right. It is not because they intentionally decide to be naughty or bad and we.
| 47:39.66 louisekuchel Um | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 47:39.84 maggie dent Got to get rid of that fact | just it's still with little children and toddlers I mean as if a toddler goes. Okay I'm gonna be really bad right now? What? Um and I think you know we do have to encourage. Um | you know our. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 47:46.79 louisekuchel It just doesn't make any sense. | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 47:56.28 maggie dent Universities and and wherever we're doing the form of training that you work with children that you get to understand how this amazing brain can work but that's in its formation in the early years the less stress they deal with the more calmness they have like the pathways of connection. The recognition of.
| 48:05.94 louisekuchel Um | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 48:16.10 maggie dent What works for them then the safer they get to be in that brain body connection for the rest of their lives. Um | yeah | so once a yeah | we were seeing. | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 48:22.40 louisekuchel We will see the difference. Yeah | we will see the difference in the behavior in the classrooms I believe that too Let's just keep keep banging that drum then Maggie we'll bag it bang. It will bring banging the drum together.
| 48:34.65 maggie dent Let's keep hang on the ground. Ah I do I have 1 because I have a lot of the parents that I've worked with with kids who are you know | struggling with making good choices all the time. Um. | | | | | | | | | | |
| 48:38.82 louisekuchel Do you have any final messages before we sign off. | | | | | | | | | |
| 48:48.72 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 48:51.50 maggie dent Ill at their lousy parents and um on what you put that stick down I Really do because when we when we're hard on ourselves and when we judge ourselves. It's harder for us to hold the love they need for us to hold and that if you have a challenging child where are you prioritizing filling your cup.
| 49:02.62 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 49:10.58 maggie dent And it's not just a token I'm going to have a cup of tea outside Now you really need to focus on what is it that fills your cup and whether that's going to a yoga class or catching up with girlfriends for coffee or if you're you're a dad who loves riding long distances with Lyra Whatever it is prioritize.
| 49:26.73 louisekuchel Yeah | it's my husband. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 49:28.87 maggie dent Prioritize it in your family life because we cannot give out of an empty cup. Um | and that is once again at the end of the day um fierce unconditional love is what our children need but we also need it first and it's got to come from us first. | |
| 49:44.56 louisekuchel So well said and there's no way that we can get the people power behind this advocacy movement that we are talking about here today if those people are not healthy themselves and feeling calm and regulated sorry themselves and. Yeah I see the parents I see the damage it does on the parents as well and just yeah I agree. Let's let's look after ourselves. It's so important. Thank you Maggie? Yeah yep.
| 50:10.52 maggie dent And find a tribe find a tribe find a tribe get you get your child and love you no matter what because that that tribe is chee. We've been separated from them. You know with all that's been going on but we know that if you've got a a family who just still.
| 50:20.93 louisekuchel Um | yes | yes. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 50:30.35 maggie dent You're still the same people who can often you know pinch your kid for a couple of hours just make sure you're okay to say yes when people offer for help and make sure you're okay to ask for help when you need it because um I too remember there was this boy in our community I'm sure that's.
| 50:34.75 louisekuchel Um | yeah | yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 50:46.73 maggie dent You know he was Neurodiersgen but that was not a term when I was a kid and I was a small community and every now and then I remember different farmers were taking for a weekend and I I said once why did they do that and he said give these folks a little break and I thought oh my goy that's what we every now and then yeah.
| 50:57.62 louisekuchel A little break. Yeah. | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 51:06.23 maggie dent So thank you again. Thanks again for reaching out. | | | | | | | | | |
| 51:07.25 louisekuchel That's right 1 hundred percent. Thank you very much else. Let's sign I'll sign us off now. Um | and if you could just hold on for a second thank you everybody so much for listening to this super super important and special episode of square peg ground hole I'll sign us off. Thanks maggie.
| 51:21.62 maggie dent Is. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |